False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

[BreadOfLife]

Debunked. Hahahaha. Please.
Like im going to believe your twisted translation of ancient Greek.
All those verses I listed are strong evidence against perpetual virginity.
You've debunked nothing. You only tried to add some doubt. A very small amount if doubt
In the end their is no biblical evidence for perpetual virginity. That's my main point

No – they were ALL debunked in earlier posts.
Here’s a RECAP, since you refuse to read the posts . . .

So, Matt. 13:55–56, Mark 6:3, Matt. 12:46, Mark 3:31, and Luke 8:19 talk about the “rothers” (Adelphoi) of Jesus. In Matt. 13:55–56, Mark 6, they are actually named:

Anybody with even a rudimentary understanding of Greek knows that “Adelphos(oi)" doesn’t always mean uterine siblins. In fact, in the are 344 instances are instances where the word “Adelphos” and ALL of its variations are used in the NT:

- 41 times (12%) are cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling.
- 47 instances (14%) are cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling.
- A whopping 256 instances (74%) are cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does NOT refer to a family sibling.

Adelphos can mean brother of the same parents, half-brother, cousin, uncle, kinsman, neighbor, fellow countryman, fellow believer, etc.

YOU problem is the SAME as your friend Titus. You guys are trying to apply 21st century English to a language and a culture from over 2000 years ago.

Finally - what do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?
Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome").

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister (Adelphe), Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph (Joses) to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – NOT Mary, the Mother of Jesus.
ANY attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are SQUASHED by the Bible


You have a completely different problem with Matt. 1:25 and the use of the word, “Until” . . .

Matt. 1:25 says: but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Did Mary have other children after Jesus? As we have examined – the Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “UNTIL”. . . .

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death."
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Moses was buried by God in the valley of Moab after his death. Deut. 34:6 explicitly states: And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre UNTIL this present day.
Sooooo – did they find his grave after this??

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father AFTER his enemies are made his footstool?

The problem here is that the anti-Catholic attempts to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago. . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Learn this.
We all have lied at times.

"A liar" in that context is someone who lives a lifestyle of lying.

We certainly HAVE.

However - a person who has lied and then repents is NOT the same as a person who continues to live a LIFE of lying . . .

 

[Armour of God]

No – they were ALL debunked in earlier posts.
Here’s a RECAP, since you refuse to read the posts . . .

So, Matt. 13:55–56, Mark 6:3, Matt. 12:46, Mark 3:31, and Luke 8:19 talk about the “rothers” (Adelphoi) of Jesus. In Matt. 13:55–56, Mark 6, they are actually named:

Anybody with even a rudimentary understanding of Greek knows that “Adelphos(oi)" doesn’t always mean uterine siblins. In fact, in the are 344 instances are instances where the word “Adelphos” and ALL of its variations are used in the NT:

- 41 times (12%) are cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling.
- 47 instances (14%) are cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling.
- A whopping 256 instances (74%) are cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does NOT refer to a family sibling.

Adelphos can mean brother of the same parents, half-brother, cousin, uncle, kinsman, neighbor, fellow countryman, fellow believer, etc.

YOU problem is the SAME as your friend Titus. You guys are trying to apply 21st century English to a language and a culture from over 2000 years ago.

Finally - what do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?
Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome").

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister (Adelphe), Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph (Joses) to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – NOT Mary, the Mother of Jesus.
ANY attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are SQUASHED by the Bible


You have a completely different problem with Matt. 1:25 and the use of the word, “Until” . . .

Matt. 1:25 says: but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Did Mary have other children after Jesus? As we have examined – the Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “UNTIL”. . . .

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death."
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Moses was buried by God in the valley of Moab after his death. Deut. 34:6 explicitly states: And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre UNTIL this present day.
Sooooo – did they find his grave after this??

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father AFTER his enemies are made his footstool?

The problem here is that the anti-Catholic attempts to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago. . .

I don't believe in your translation of ancient Greek and how it's used, so your arguments are invalid for me.

How about showing me where perpetual virginity is taught in the bible?

 

[GeneZ]

How about showing me where perpetual virginity is taught in the bible?

I bet you can not wait to show how you are going to make this passage into a disappearing act.

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary ​

home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. ​

And he gave him the name Jesus. Matthew 1:24-25​

Keep in mind.
When the Catholic church began that concept most of the parishioners were uneducated and would believe anything.

 

[amigo de christo]

This thread bounces back and forth so much one can not be sure after a while as to whom said what.

So to make sure I understand where you stand on this issue?
I will simply ask.

Do you believe Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born?

That is the Catholic position.
Is it yours too?

Do i believe that mary remained a virgin after the birth of Christ . No way .
And it dont make her less blessed either . Folks act as if mary did not remain a virgin something was wrong . nope .
She was only a virgin TILL after Christ was born .

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't believe in your translation of ancient Greek and how it's used, so your arguments are invalid for me.

How about showing me where perpetual virginity is taught in the bible?

No wife or husband ever abstained their whole lives .
Nor did mary and joseph . Him simply knew her Not , T ILL after the birth .
And folks act like its a sin to say she had other children too . The scriptures make it real plain
That JESUS had a nest egg of brothers and sisters .

 

[GeneZ]

Do i believe that mary remained a virgin after the birth of Christ . No way .
And it dont make her less blessed either . Folks act as if mary did not remain a virgin something was wrong . nope .
She was only a virgin TILL after Christ was born .

The reason she was a virgin is two fold.

It was to be a 'sign.'

Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: ​

Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, ​

and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14​

And, she needed to be a virgin for Jesus to be born sinless.
Because, it is by the means of the male sperm that the sin nature is passed down

Eve was the first sinner.
But, afterward was when sin entered the word through Adam, not the woman.

The sin nature is passed down by the male in copulation.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​

so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12.​

....."because all sinned?"

Greek - "all sinned" = all sinned in a single moment in time!
In Greek grammar, the aorist tense represents an action as a completed whole or a singular event,
without reference to its duration or repetition.

So when Adam fertilized the ovum of Eve?
What was passed down sealed the fate for the entire human race!

 

[amigo de christo]

The reason she was a virgin is two fold.

It was to be a 'sign.'

Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: ​

Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, ​

and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14​

And, she needed to be a virgin for Jesus to be born sinless.
Because, it is by the means of the male sperm that the sin nature is passed down

Eve was the first sinner.
But, afterward was when sin entered the word through Adam, not the woman.

The sin nature is passed down by the male in copulation.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​

so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12.​

....."because all sinned?"

Greek - "all sinned" = all sinned in a single moment in time!
In Greek grammar, the aorist tense represents an action as a completed whole or a singular event,
without reference to its duration or repetition.

So when Adam fertilized the ovum of Eve?
What was passed down sealed the fate for the entire human race!

whether or not this is entirely true , at least it makes sense .
What i do know is Mary was indeed a virgin . no doubt about it .
I also know , however , that mary was not sinless herself . though her heart was darn sure after GOD .
And she had Great faith in GOD and believed GOD .
She was a virgin . BUT ONLY till after the birth . The bible is very clear that JESUS had quite a few brothers
and even a few sisters .

 

[amigo de christo]

The reason she was a virgin is two fold.

It was to be a 'sign.'

Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: ​

Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, ​

and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14​

And, she needed to be a virgin for Jesus to be born sinless.
Because, it is by the means of the male sperm that the sin nature is passed down

Eve was the first sinner.
But, afterward was when sin entered the word through Adam, not the woman.

The sin nature is passed down by the male in copulation.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​

so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12.​

....."because all sinned?"

Greek - "all sinned" = all sinned in a single moment in time!
In Greek grammar, the aorist tense represents an action as a completed whole or a singular event,
without reference to its duration or repetition.

So when Adam fertilized the ovum of Eve?
What was passed down sealed the fate for the entire human race!

The only one who was sinless was and IS JESUS the CHRIST .
all others have sinned and fallen short o the glory of GOD , AND ITS WHY THEY ALL NEED JESUS .
This might or might not suprise you , but even MARY herself NEEDED JESUS to save her as well .
But again i aint saying she did not have faith . SHE DID have faith . And thus SHE beleived GOD

 

[amigo de christo]

This is patently FALSE. But I’m NOT surprised because MOST of the confused and misinformed manure that you post is filled with inaccuracies, misinformation and outright LIES . . .

I openly-challenge you to show me a SINGLE quote – IN CONTEXT, of a Pope claiming that we don’t need Christ in order to be saved.

Yes, we’ve ALL heard it. EVERYBODY in in danger – but YOU.

Oh - and the Church doesn’t teach that reading the Bible is a sin.
Maybe it’s best if you just stop lying now . . .

Rev. 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and ALL LIARS, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

and you are really gonna try and sell me on that was patently false .
Bud did you ever pay attention to pope francis . Do you even know what he believes . inclusivism .
You are just trying so hard to defend your own tradition .
HECK to be honest pope francis aint even really catholic either . not that i support catholicsm .
But STILL you gonna defend that . GUESS you really did buy the lie
about THE POPES truly being the vicar of Christ . THEY were plenty of what even some catholics
would call bad popes . THOUGH i would call them all bad .
YOU follow man . You are no different than a jw . ONLY your doctrines are different .
YOU , they and much of christendom follow and trust in men , and when i say in men
I mean also in men gone wrong .

 

[GeneZ]

whether or not this is entirely true , at least it makes sense .
What i do know is Mary was indeed a virgin . no doubt about it .
I also know , however , that mary was not sinless herself . though her heart was darn sure after GOD .
And she had Great faith in GOD and believed GOD .
She was a virgin . BUT ONLY till after the birth . The bible is very clear that JESUS had quite a few brothers
and even a few sisters .

Yes...

Mary was a sinner like all of us needing salvation.
That is why Mary called the God her savior.

“My soul magnifies the Lord​

and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,​

for he has been mindful​

of the humble state of his servant.​

Luke 1:46-47

 

[Armour of God]

I bet you can not wait to show how you are going to make this passage into a disappearing act.

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary ​

home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. ​

And he gave him the name Jesus. Matthew 1:24-25​

Keep in mind.
When the Catholic church began that concept most of the parishioners were uneducated and would believe anything.

That verse tells me that Mary and Joseph did have sexual relations after Jesus was born

But Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And he named him Jesus. - Matthew 1:25 ERV

 

[GeneZ]

That verse tells me that Mary and Joseph did have sexual relations after Jesus was born

But Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And he named him Jesus. - Matthew 1:25 ERV

She did not remain a virgin.

That's all the Catholics needed to be honest about and there may have not been the Reformation.