False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

[Titus]

The largest sectarian religion that professes to be christian, teaches Mary mother of Jesus never had sexual relations with her husband Joseph after the virgin birth of Jesus.

Matthew 1:23-25,
- Behold the virgin shall be with child and bear a Son and they shall call His name Immanuel, which is translated God with us.

- Then Joseph being aroused from sleep did as the angel of the Lord commanded him took to his wife,
and did not KNOW HER till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

Galatians 1:19,
- Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and remained with him fifteen days.
- But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lords BROTHER.

Mary had children with Joseph before she left this earth. Jesus had siblings. Paul says so in Galatians 1:19.
Mary lost her virginity to her husband as God intended.

I would appreciate others to quote passages that show Jesus had siblings.
There are more than the ones I quoted above.
But one only needs one passage that says Jesus had a brother named James to refute the false doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
How many times does God need to say something for it to be true? Once!

 

[Bob Estey]

The largest sectarian religion that professes to be christian, teaches Mary mother of Jesus never had sexual relations with her husband Joseph after the virgin birth of Jesus.

Matthew 1:23-25,
- Behold the virgin shall be with child and bear a Son and they shall call His name Immanuel, which is translated God with us.

- Then Joseph being aroused from sleep did as the angel of the Lord commanded him took to his wife,
and did not KNOW HER till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

Galatians 1:19,
- Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and remained with him fifteen days.
- But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lords BROTHER.

Mary had children with Joseph before she left this earth. Jesus had siblings. Paul says so in Galatians 1:19.
Mary lost her virginity to her husband as God intended.

I would appreciate others to quote passages that show Jesus had siblings.
There are more than the ones I quoted above.
But one only needs one passage that says Jesus had a brother named James to refute the false doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
How many times does God need to say something for it to be true? Once!

I wasn't aware anyone taught that Mary had no children after Jesus.

 

[Titus]

I wasn't aware anyone taught that Mary had no children after Jesus.

Catholic doctrine. Mary's perpetual virginity
Some Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed also hold to this unbiblical doctrine.

 

[David in NJ]

RCC = Mariolatry = Goddess worship

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 1:23-25,
- Behold the virgin shall be with child and bear a Son and they shall call His name Immanuel, which is translated God with us.

- Then Joseph being aroused from sleep did as the angel of the Lord commanded him took to his wife,
and did not KNOW HER till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

While I agree that Mary and Joseph likely consummated their marriage AFTER Jesus was born, the word "til" cannot be used to definitively proclaim that the situation changed after Jesus was born (in either the Greek or in English). I offer another verse from the same Gospel for your consideration with the word "TIL" ...

[Matthew 12:20 KJV] "A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory."

Does Matthew 12:20 mean that AFTER God sends forth judgement unto victory, that THEN A bruised reed WILL break, and smoking flax MUST BE quenched? Does it just mean that the "bruising" and "quenching" will not happen BEFORE "judgement" with no indication one way or the other about what happens after?

As I said, Joseph was the HUSBAND of Mary, so I am inclined to believe that it was a true marriage and not some bizarre mockery of what God declared for Adam and Eve ... but we must handle the WORD OF GOD with care and be faithful to what it says and what it does not say.

• Matthew 1:23-25 does NOT SAY she remained a virgin forever.
• Matthew 1:23-25 does NOT SAY that Joseph "knew her".
• The verses are silent on that crude detail that is likely none of our business.
• The verses DO SAY that Mary was the WIFE of Joseph and [Matthew 1:16] that Joseph was the HUSBAND of Mary.
• (I know what "Husband and Wife" mean in English without the need for getting into their 'business'.)

Galatians 1:19,
- Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and remained with him fifteen days.
- But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lords BROTHER.

"brother" = ἀδελφὸν = adelphon = Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

ἀδελφός, -οῦ, ὁ (from α copulative and δελφύς, from the same womb; cf. ἀγάστωρ) [from Homer down];​

1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matthew 1:2; Matthew 4:18, and often. That 'the brethren of Jesus,' Matthew 12:46, 47 [but WH only in marginal reading]; Matthew 13:55f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels [cf. Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N. T. i. 362f]), nor cousins, the children of Alphæus or Cleophas [i. e. Clopas] and Mary a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine [cf. Bp. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.]), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:22, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 [only in R G]; Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱὸν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱὸν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles.​

See further on this point under Ἰάκωβος, 3. [Cf. B. D. under the word Brother; Andrews, Life of our Lord, pp. 104-116; Bib. Sacr. for 1864, pp. 855-869; for 1869, pp. 745-758; Laurent, N. T. Studien, pp. 153-193; McClellan, note on Matthew 13:55.]​

Once again, handling the WORD OF GOD with care requires that we acknowledge all of the following:

• The actual word CAN mean any kinsman.
• Some scholars believe that they are either "half-brothers" or "cousins".
• Most scholars reject these possibilities in THIS VERSE [Galatians 1:19] because of textural indicators from other verses.

So we should stand by our beliefs while acknowledging the alternative possibilities and being prepared to "give a reason" when defending our faith.

 

[David in NJ]

While I agree that Mary and Joseph likely consummated their marriage AFTER Jesus was born, the word "til" cannot be used to definitively proclaim that the situation changed after Jesus was born (in either the Greek or in English). I offer another verse from the same Gospel for your consideration with the word "TIL" ...

[Matthew 12:20 KJV] "A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory."

Does Matthew 12:20 mean that AFTER God sends forth judgement unto victory, that THEN A bruised reed WILL break, and smoking flax MUST BE quenched? Does it just mean that the "bruising" and "quenching" will not happen BEFORE "judgement" with no indication one way or the other about what happens after?

As I said, Joseph was the HUSBAND of Mary, so I am inclined to believe that it was a true marriage and not some bizarre mockery of what God declared for Adam and Eve ... but we must handle the WORD OF GOD with care and be faithful to what it says and what it does not say.

• Matthew 1:23-25 does NOT SAY she remained a virgin forever.
• Matthew 1:23-25 does NOT SAY that Joseph "knew her".
• The verses are silent on that crude detail that is likely none of our business.
• The verses DO SAY that Mary was the WIFE of Joseph and [Matthew 1:16] that Joseph was the HUSBAND of Mary.
• (I know what "Husband and Wife" mean in English without the need for getting into their 'business'.)

"brother" = ἀδελφὸν = adelphon = Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

ἀδελφός, -οῦ, ὁ (from α copulative and δελφύς, from the same womb; cf. ἀγάστωρ) [from Homer down];​

1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matthew 1:2; Matthew 4:18, and often. That 'the brethren of Jesus,' Matthew 12:46, 47 [but WH only in marginal reading]; Matthew 13:55f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels [cf. Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N. T. i. 362f]), nor cousins, the children of Alphæus or Cleophas [i. e. Clopas] and Mary a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine [cf. Bp. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.]), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:22, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 [only in R G]; Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱὸν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱὸν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles.​

See further on this point under Ἰάκωβος, 3. [Cf. B. D. under the word Brother; Andrews, Life of our Lord, pp. 104-116; Bib. Sacr. for 1864, pp. 855-869; for 1869, pp. 745-758; Laurent, N. T. Studien, pp. 153-193; McClellan, note on Matthew 13:55.]​

Once again, handling the WORD OF GOD with care requires that we acknowledge all of the following:

• The actual word CAN mean any kinsman.
• Some scholars believe that they are either "half-brothers" or "cousins".
• Most scholars reject these possibilities in THIS VERSE [Galatians 1:19] because of textural indicators from other verses.

So we should stand by our beliefs while acknowledging the alternative possibilities and being prepared to "give a reason" when defending our faith.

Joseph and Mary were married which includes GOD GIVEN SEXUAL RELATIONS for reproduction.

Joseph knew Mary after Jesus was born = For a man to know his wife means sexual relation

New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Standard Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

New King James Version
and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he named Him Jesus.

NASB 1995
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

NASB 1977
and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Legacy Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Amplified Bible
but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The LORD is salvation).

Christian Standard Bible
but did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And he named him Jesus.

 

[atpollard]

Joseph knew Mary after Jesus was born

Matthew 1:25 does not actually SAY that Joseph KNEW Mary ... Matthew emphasizes the VIRGIN BIRTH by SAYING that Joseph DID NOT KNOW MARY before Jesus was born.

Go and exegete Matthew 12:20 with your same rules and tell me if the REED MUST BE BROKEN after victory?

 

[David in NJ]

Matthew 1:25 does not actually SAY that Joseph KNEW Mary ... Matthew emphasizes the VIRGIN BIRTH by SAYING that Joseph DID NOT KNOW MARY before Jesus was born.

Go and exegete Matthew 12:20 with your same rules and tell me if the REED MUST BE BROKEN after victory?

Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

Joseph was married to Mary = confirmed by the Angel and the word of God.

Joseph did not "know" = "know" means sexual intercourse

till = means not till after Jesus was born

This is basic english sentence structure that a child can understand.

 

[Jack]

I think some are trying to say that Mary was 'sinless', but she was not. Jesus is her Savior too.

 

[atpollard]

till = means not till after Jesus was born

This is basic english sentence structure that a child can understand.

[Act 25:21 NIV] 21 But when Paul made his appeal to be held over for the Emperor's decision, I ordered him held until I could send him to Caesar."

• Was Paul no longer "held over" as soon as he was loaded on the boat and "sent"? ... UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE.

[2Pe 1:19 NIV] 19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

• When the "day dawns", does the lamp immediately stop "shining"? ... UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE.

[Mat 1:24-25 NIV] 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

• When Jesus was born, did Joseph consummate the marriage in 'Stable' after she gave birth and before they named him Jesus? ... UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE.

 

[David in NJ]

[Act 25:21 NIV] 21 But when Paul made his appeal to be held over for the Emperor's decision, I ordered him held until I could send him to Caesar."

• Was Paul no longer "held over" as soon as he was loaded on the boat and "sent"? ... UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE.

[2Pe 1:19 NIV] 19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

• When the "day dawns", does the lamp immediately stop "shining"? ... UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE.

[Mat 1:24-25 NIV] 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

• When Jesus was born, did Joseph consummate the marriage in 'Stable' after she gave birth and before they named him Jesus? ... UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE.

You said: "UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE."

There is no disputing this.

Neither is there any disputing that sometime after Jesus was born Joseph "knew" Mary = God given marriage sexual intercourse.

 

[Titus]

RCC = Mariolatry = Goddess worship

Catholics vehemently deny this.
But the truth doesn't care about what catholics historically teach and practise then deny and accuse others who point out what you rightly have as being a misrepresentation of their religion.

Truth is truth, it is what it is.
Catholics teach Mary as divine.
Bowing down to an image of Mary as I've seen Catholics do multiple times is idolatry.
Praying to Mary is unbiblical. Jesus' model prayer was that christians are appealing to the Father no other example is giving by Jesus as to who we are to pray to,
Matthew 5:9-10
- In this manner therefore pray,
Our  Father in heaven hallowed be Your(Father) name
Thy(Father) kingdom come
Your(Father) will be done
On earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our debtors
and do not lead us into temptation
but deliver us from the evil one
For Yours(Father) is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen.

 

[Lambano]

While it's true that the literal meaning of "until" does not specify what happens outside of the period of time specified by the "until" statement, language carries certain unsaid implications. In the verse in question, the terminus of the "until" statement is Jesus's birth. Why was this point in time chosen, rather than, say, the end of Mary's mortal life? What is implied by that choice of words?

That is how language is used.

 

[David in NJ]

Catholics vehemently deny this.
But the truth doesn't care about what catholics historically teach and practise then deny and accuse others who point out what you rightly have as being a misrepresentation of their religion.

Truth is truth, it is what it is.
Catholics teach Mary as divine.
Bowing down to an image of Mary as I've seen Catholics do multiple times is idolatry.
Praying to Mary is unbiblical. Jesus' model prayer was that christians are appealing to the Father no other example is giving by Jesus as to who we are to pray to,
Matthew 5:9-10
- In this manner therefore pray,
Our  Fatherin heaven hallowed be Your(Father) name
Thy(Father) kingdom come
Your(Father) will be done
On earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our debtors
and do not lead us into temptation
but deliver us from the evil one
For Yours(Father) is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen.

i was raised RCC

Then i was Born-Again by the Spirit and batptized in the Holy Spirit.

Now i am FREE from religion and waiting for my Savior, the LORD Jesus Christ

 

[Titus]

While I agree that Mary and Joseph likely consummated their marriage AFTER Jesus was born, the word "til" cannot be used to definitively proclaim that the situation changed after Jesus was born (in either the Greek or in English). I offer another verse from the same Gospel for your consideration with the word "TIL" ...

[Matthew 12:20 KJV] "A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory."

Does Matthew 12:20 mean that AFTER God sends forth judgement unto victory, that THEN A bruised reed WILL break, and smoking flax MUST BE quenched? Does it just mean that the "bruising" and "quenching" will not happen BEFORE "judgement" with no indication one way or the other about what happens after?

As I said, Joseph was the HUSBAND of Mary, so I am inclined to believe that it was a true marriage and not some bizarre mockery of what God declared for Adam and Eve ... but we must handle the WORD OF GOD with care and be faithful to what it says and what it does not say.

• Matthew 1:23-25 does NOT SAY she remained a virgin forever.
• Matthew 1:23-25 does NOT SAY that Joseph "knew her".
• The verses are silent on that crude detail that is likely none of our business.
• The verses DO SAY that Mary was the WIFE of Joseph and [Matthew 1:16] that Joseph was the HUSBAND of Mary.
• (I know what "Husband and Wife" mean in English without the need for getting into their 'business'.)

"brother" = ἀδελφὸν = adelphon = Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

ἀδελφός, -οῦ, ὁ (from α copulative and δελφύς, from the same womb; cf. ἀγάστωρ) [from Homer down];​

1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matthew 1:2; Matthew 4:18, and often. That 'the brethren of Jesus,' Matthew 12:46, 47 [but WH only in marginal reading]; Matthew 13:55f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels [cf. Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N. T. i. 362f]), nor cousins, the children of Alphæus or Cleophas [i. e. Clopas] and Mary a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine [cf. Bp. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.]), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:22, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 [only in R G]; Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱὸν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱὸν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles.​

See further on this point under Ἰάκωβος, 3. [Cf. B. D. under the word Brother; Andrews, Life of our Lord, pp. 104-116; Bib. Sacr. for 1864, pp. 855-869; for 1869, pp. 745-758; Laurent, N. T. Studien, pp. 153-193; McClellan, note on Matthew 13:55.]​

Once again, handling the WORD OF GOD with care requires that we acknowledge all of the following:

• The actual word CAN mean any kinsman.
• Some scholars believe that they are either "half-brothers" or "cousins".
• Most scholars reject these possibilities in THIS VERSE [Galatians 1:19] because of textural indicators from other verses.

So we should stand by our beliefs while acknowledging the alternative possibilities and being prepared to "give a reason" when defending our faith.

To understand Matthew's point through the inspiration of the Spirit.
All that is needed is to listen to Paul confirm what Matthew is conveying in Matthew 1:25 = Galatians 1:19.
The Bible is it's best interpreter.

 

[Titus]

Once again, handling the WORD OF GOD with care requires that we acknowledge all of the following:

• The actual word CAN mean any kinsman.
• Some scholars believe that they are either "half-brothers" or "cousins".
• Most scholars reject these possibilities in THIS VERSE [Galatians 1:19] because of textural indicators from other verses.

So we should stand by our beliefs while acknowledging the alternative possibilities and being prepared to "give a reason" when defending our faith.

Galatians 1:19 is referring to Jesus' half brother,
Matthew 13:55-56,
- Is this not the carpenter's Son, is not His mother called Mary and His
Brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas
- And His sisters, are they not all with us
Where did this Man get all these things

 

[Behold]

RCC = Mariolatry = Goddess worship

The "Roman" Pagan Goddess Diana was a perpetual Virgin.

Acts 19:27​

​

27 ""So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worships.""​

​

""" much of her ethos [beliefs & practices] was transferred to the Virgin Mary. Both figures enjoyed major sanctuaries at Ephesus in 5ad" (Encyclopedia of Gods, Jordan, p. 26). By taking over Diana's Temple as a church for Mary in Ephesus and declaring her "Mother of God" , the Catholic church simply borrowed and adapted ancient traditions"""​

-​

​

​

 

[David in NJ]

While it's true that the literal meaning of "until" does not specify what happens outside of the period of time specified by the "until" statement, language carries certain unsaid implications. In the verse in question, the terminus of the "until" statement is Jesus's birth. Why was this point in time chosen, rather than, say, the end of Mary's mortal life? What is implied by that choice of words?

That is how language is used.

Yep, simple english sentence structure = no sex until later = Joseph: OK Lord, I will wait until after Jesus is born

 

[David in NJ]

Yep, simple english sentence structure = no sex until later = Joseph: OK Lord, I will wait until after Jesus is born

After Jesus was born, it does not matter 'when' took place - that was between Joseph and Mary in Holy Matrimony

Joseph did, at the least, wait until Mary was purified according to the Law.

When a woman gives birth there is blood and fluids that make her unclean until she heals(dries up) and then she goes through a cleansing process called Mikvah.
Only after this process is the husband and wife permitted to engage in sexual union.

 

[Titus]

The "Roman" Pagan Goddess Diana was a perpetual Virgin.

Acts 19:27​

​

27 ""So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worships.""​

​

""" much of her ethos [beliefs & practices] was transferred to the Virgin Mary. Both figures enjoyed major sanctuaries at Ephesus in 5ad" (Encyclopedia of Gods, Jordan, p. 26). By taking over Diana's Temple as a church for Mary in Ephesus and declaring her "Mother of God" , the Catholic church simply borrowed and adapted ancient traditions"""​

-​

View attachment 33765​

​

Proof catholicism is paganism not christianity! Well said Behold