Conversation with An Atheist

[RLT63]

I am ploughing through the OT again. I don't like the God of the OT.
The God of the OT is unpleasant and needy, his only begotten son on the other hand is good, (I'm skipping forward to the NT here) he's a good man who teaches love and tolerance.
If the God of the OT who sent his son for us was loving towards his creation, I'd definitely have a different view.
The evidence provided by the Bible says otherwise...

I'm not stupid by the way for not accepting the biblical God, I'm looking at it with a Jesus mindset.
I think that Jesus would be horrified by some of the views that his supposed followers come out with. I think that Jesus was more loving than that.

It's a pity that he was just a historical figure and not the son of the creator.

If he’s not the Son of God then he was a liar who has deceived millions of people. As for me, I believe him.

 

[Mancunian]

If he’s not the Son of God then he was a liar who has deceived millions of people. As for me, I believe him.

Can you see the difference between the father and the son?
It's as plain as daylight to me.

I don't think that Jesus compares in any way to the God of the OT.

I don't think that Jesus would have condoned any of the warmongering. I don't think that Jesus would have commanded an army. I don't think that Jesus had a bad bone in his body.

From historical accounts I think that Jesus existed and died on the cross. I believe that Jesus cared about people, and I believe that Jesus died for nothing.

I also think that the legend lived on.. The stories were exaggerated over time and were cemented into folklore. Paul took the reigns and basically created Christianity as we know it today.

 

[Mancunian]

Yes. Reports are coming back positive that it has been located. GPR, ERT, LiDAR, core drilling, dirt samples, ark dimensions have all been used scientifically to identify the ark. The anomaly at the Durupinar site has been determined not to be a natural formation.
3 levels have been discovered as well as right angels and a center hallway. More info here.

Mountains such as Mt Ararat were not present at the beginning of the flood. Around the time of the end of the flood the continents shifted, slid, moved and formed the mountains of the world. Geologist can look at features such as recumbent folds in the rock strata and have determined that the folds formed rapidly while the sediment was still somewhat plastic.
Psalms 104 describes this...
5He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.
6You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
7At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
8The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
9You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.

Perhaps, but you brought it up so here is an answer...

1. Fish can gradually become accustomed to a wide range of ambient salinities.
2. Some fish are an Euryhaline organism. They can live in both saltwater
(SW) and freshwater (FW). For example, the Cichlid fish Tilapia grahami is
found in SW but can maintain itself in FW.
Note: FW has 0 ppt (parts per thousand) of salinity and SW can be as high
as 35ppt of salinity. Most fish can tolerate a large range of this
salinity.
3. As the temperature of water increases a brackish water fish can live in
levels of almost no salinity. This could have occurred near a volcano.
4. Different individuals within the same species can have different salt
tolerances. This would have allowed the fish with the correct tolerance
to survive.
5. Antediluvian fish could have been more tolerant of saltwater that the
fishes of today. Micro evolutionary in salt tolerances could have changed
in the few thousand years since the flood.
6. Antediluvian seas were probably less saltier than todays seas.
A. Today = 35ppt of salt.
B. Prior to the flood the seas were about 20ppt of salt. The waters on
earth were 50% fresh and 50% salt. Unlike today where only a very small
fraction is fresh water.
During the flood if a complete mixture occurred the waters would be about
10ppt of salt. In reality you probably had a range of appr. 5-15 ppt of
salt.
7. The layers of FW to SW would have stratified in certain areas of the
globe. The fish could move up or down to adjust itself to the salt level.
8. During the flood sheltered cracks could have formed separating the
hi-saline water from the less saltier walter. This could have provided
protection for the fish and its fauna.
9. Only two of millions/billions?, a male and female of the same class
needed to survive the flood in order to repopulate the waters.

As you see all or some of the above if applied could have kept the classes
of fish alive during the Flood of Noah.

Yes it was. That was the purpose.

I would think they still had some food left over from the storage bins on the ark to carry them through for a while.
I would think the chickens and such were laying eggs...cows, goats gave milk and so on. So, no, I don't think they would have starved to death. Perhaps you could develop your narrative more to show your statement would be true.

Is there anything else you would like to address about Noahs flood or the ark?

There wouldn't have been ANYTHING to eat for the emerging animals....
The animals would have had to fend for themselves...
I'm sure that the chickens would have been snapped up fairly quickly.

 

[RLT63]

Can you see the difference between the father and the son?
It's as plain as daylight to me.

I don't think that Jesus compares in any way to the God of the OT.

I don't think that Jesus would have condoned any of the warmongering. I don't think that Jesus would have commanded an army. I don't think that Jesus had a bad bone in his body.

From historical accounts I think that Jesus existed and died on the cross. I believe that Jesus cared about people, and I believe that Jesus died for nothing.

I also think that the legend lived on.. The stories were exaggerated over time and were cemented into folklore. Paul took the reins and basically created Christianity as we know it today.

I understand how you feel about the God of the Old Testament, there are many things that I don’t understand and I don’t think I could convince you to change your mind about that. But as far as Paul and the disciples would you be willing to die for something that you knew wasn’t true?

Edit: When I said the God of the Old Testament just to clarify I understand your conclusions about him but I believe in one God who has one Son and they are one

 

[RLT63]

AI overview
Group 1: Historically Certain (Recorded in the Bible)
Only two fates are clearly recorded in the New Testament texts, giving them the highest level of historical certainty within the Christian tradition. [1, 2]


James (Son of Zebedee):Executed with a sword by King Herod Agrippa I in Jerusalem around 44 AD.

• Source: The New Testament (Acts 12:2), written in the 1st century.

---

Judas Iscariot:Died by suicide in Jerusalem shortly after the crucifixion of Jesus.

• Source: The New Testament (Matthew 27:5 states he hanged himself; Acts 1:18 states he fell and his bowels burst open). [1, 2, 3]

---

Group 2: Highly Probable (Early Extra-Biblical Sources)
While not in the Bible, early Christian and secular writers from the 1st to 3rd centuries provide strong corroboration for these deaths. [1, 2, 3]


Peter:Crucified upside down in Rome under Emperor Nero around 64–67 AD. He reportedly requested to be inverted because he felt unworthy to die like Jesus.

• Sources: Early church leaders like Clement of Rome (c. 95 AD) and Ignatius mention his martyrdom. The Acts of Peter (2nd century apocrypha) first details the upside-down crucifixion, later confirmed by historians Origen and Eusebius.

---

Paul (The 13th Apostle):Though not of the original Twelve, he is historically grouped with them. He was beheaded in Rome under Nero.

• Sources: Mentioned alongside Peter by Clement of Rome (1st century) and extensively detailed by 2nd-century church fathers like Tertullian.

---

John:Died peacefully of old age in Ephesus (modern-day Turkey) around 100 AD. He was the only original apostle to escape martyrdom, though tradition says he survived a prior exile to the island of Patmos.

• Sources: Highly consistent early church tradition from Irenaeus (c. 180 AD) and Eusebius, who noted that John lived into the reign of Trajan. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]

---

Group 3: Plausible but Mixed (Early Traditions & Later Legends)
These accounts feature a mix of early localized church history and contradictory records. [1]


Thomas:Pierced by spears in Mylapore, India, around 72 AD.

• Sources: The 3rd-century apocryphal text Acts of Thomas records this. The account is considered plausible by many historians because it matches the deeply rooted oral history of the ancient Saint Thomas Christians in South India.

---

Andrew:Crucified in Patras, Greece, on a diagonal, X-shaped cross (now known as St. Andrew's Cross).

• Sources: The 2nd-century apocryphal text Acts of Andrew. While the martyrdom itself is broadly supported by early church fathers, the detail regarding the X-shaped cross is a much later medieval addition.

---

James (Son of Alphaeus / "The Less"): Beaten, stoned, or thrown from the temple in Jerusalem. (Note: Early records often conflate him with James the Brother of Jesus).

• Sources: The 1st-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus records the stoning of "James the brother of Jesus". Hegesippus (2nd century) adds that he was thrown from a temple roof and beaten to death with a fuller's club. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]

---

Group 4: Structurally Weak (Late Apocryphal Accounts)
For the remaining apostles, historical data is virtually non-existent. Their stories come from late medieval texts like the Golden Legend or highly conflicted apocryphal texts written centuries after the facts. [1]

Apostle	Traditional Manner of Death	Primary Sources & Historical Caveats
Matthew	Stabbed with a sword/ax in Ethiopia.	Highly Conflicted. The 2nd-century scholar Heracleon (quoted by Clement of Alexandria) explicitly states Matthew died of natural causes, which historians favor. The violent martyrdom story emerged centuries later in medieval legends.
Bartholomew	Flayed (skinned alive) and beheaded in Armenia.	Late Apocrypha. The account comes from the Acts of Bartholomew (4th–5th century). Other localized traditions claim he was drowned or crucified.
Philip	Crucified or stoned to death in Hierapolis (modern Turkey).	Late Apocrypha. Found in the 4th-century Acts of Philip. Some early texts suggest he actually died of natural old age.
Simon the Zealot	Sawn in half or crucified in Persia.	Highly Unreliable. Accounts are completely unverified. Western tradition relies on the late medieval Acts of Simon and Jude, while Eastern traditions claim he died peacefully in Edessa.
Jude (Thaddeus)	Beaten to death with an ax/club in Persia or Syria.	Late Apocrypha. Heavily tied to the same late legends as Simon the Zealot. Other texts claim he died peacefully in Armenia or Beirut.
Matthias (Judas's Replacement)	Stoned and beheaded in Jerusalem or Georgia.	No Early Evidence. The Acts of Andrew and Matthias (dated late) contains heavily mythologized stories, and alternative traditions say he simply died of old age.

 

[CrowCross]

What's the haha all about? I asked you a straight forward question. Just answer it.
We know that the Epic of Gilgamesh predates the Bible.
We know that genesis mirrors the Epic of Gilgamesh and comes from the same region.... Namely Iraq.
I'm not being condescending or trying to make you look silly. Please stop doing that to me.

Times 2....

 

[CrowCross]

There wouldn't have been ANYTHING to eat for the emerging animals....
The animals would have had to fend for themselves...
I'm sure that the chickens would have been snapped up fairly quickly.

Well, well, well....there you go, you're thinking out of the box now...chickens...the rodent population would have been increasing. Kinda yucky but for the carrion eaters re-exhumed carrion.
Of course the grasses would have began to grow...many animals like to munch out on grass.

See that!!! Think out of the box and your ark problems go away.

Oh, besides that, it appears the ark has been identified in the Mountains of Ararat.

 

[Wrangler]

Perhaps, but you brought it up so here is an answer...

Perhaps you could present an example rather than simply making an unsupported claim.

The flood account was spread to all nations when the division of Babel occurred. Since this predated Moses, it is not surprising that we find flood accounts from many different cultures that predate the Genesis account. I recommend a good book on the subject. It explains how all nations were originally monotheistic and how similar accounts are spread.

Eternity in Their Hearts: Startling Evidence of Belief in the One True God in Hundreds of Cultures Throughout the World

Blessings

Special thanks to @CrowCross and @shepherdsword for thoughtfully addressing @Mancunian’s doubts based geological evidence.

 

[Wrangler]

I've heard countless testimonies, I'm sure that you've heard countless testimonies that make you uncomfortable.
Your experience is your own and I'm not going to comment on that.

All I can say about personal experience is that personal experience is personal and counts for nothing.

So said 100's of martyrs through thousands of years NEVER.

 

[Wrangler]

I object to wasting commandments on trivia....

The question was which of the 10 Commandments you object to, not trivia. What do you mean by this characterization?

The first four are all about God's ego,

And you find our Creator commanding how we prioritize our God in our life morally objectionable?

To be honest, 2 years before I came to Christ, I recall objecting to these ego based commands. I realized it is my own ego that was the stumbling block, an example of THE PERVERSION OF EQUALITY, a manifestation of the Original Sin playing out yet again.

he could have dropped one of those in favour of let's say "Thou shalt not make slaves" or "Thou shalt not go to war".

As if slavery or war is inherently bad! More on that below.

Of course the others are givens.

Rare credit given by an Atheist to the moral righteousness of all-mighty God. Well done.

If God is perfectly moral and the commandments are perfectly moral, how can God break those commandments himself?

You’ll have to explain how you came to that conclusion.

God commited genocide, God directly ordered murder, God made a bargain with Satan,

Killing and murder are not the same. What is your moral opposition to genocide?

America is an overly individualistic society. In most of human cultures, collective punishment was and is the norm. Funny how today people wring their hands over civilian casualties in war. Before WWII, civilians were the rightful target in war. Don’t be fooled; the military represent the people. It is naive and foolish to punish the representatives of the people and not the people.

Islam and communism are 2 schools of thought that seek genocide against all but adherents to their ideology.

God lied to Adam and Eve.

While I agree, I was once banned on this forum for making this observation. (I also didn’t win too many fans in observing the numerous times Jesus lied but we can explore that more in another thread).

Lead by example.... Let's not regulate slavery, let's command against it.

War is the only rational response to evil. See threads :

God Commands Righteous Violence

This vid is provocative from the perspective of today's overly spiritualized. One interesting observation is the Christian hero Prince Vlad, whose Dracula means order of the Knights of the dragon. He saved European Christian women and children from Islamic invaders by attacking Islamic warriors...

www.christianityboard.com

Reason for The Crusades explained

I had always heard about The Crusades in a negative way. But in this video, Bob from Speaker's Corner in London, explains why The Crusades started. They were in response to centuries of Islamic invasion of many Christian countries.

www.christianityboard.com

Crusades Began with Reconquista

www.christianityboard.com

Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades

Not wanting to lose this golden nugget of historical analysis deep in another thread, I wanted to create this thread to showcase the graphical representation of centuries of Islamic Jihad against Christian Europe compared to the Crusades. It's a brilliant work by Dr. Bill Warner that concisely...

www.christianityboard.com

Regarding slavery; I want to make 2 points

1. Slavery is a curse from God, stemming from Noah’s son after the flood.
2. Slavery is an economic model demanded by the people of Egypt, as a preference to death.

Before coming to Christ, I prioritized freedom as the highest moral. When I was 55 yo, I watched a commencement address. The speaker said that freedom is a great means but a terrible ends. Paul said we are all slaves to what controls us. What enslaves you?

 

[Wrangler]

Mrs Mancunian doesn't approve of me being here.
She is what's known as a café Christian.

I’d love it if she joined and explained her rationale as to why a non-believer should avoid believers? I can understand the reverse, for light has nothing in common with darkness.

I'm of the opinion that prayer falls on deaf ears.
I've prayed in the past, not hoping for results

That is why you fail. You fail to grasp Jeremiah 29:13. I’ve told you this before. Only when you embrace the Sh’ma do your prayers stand a chance to be heard. Deuteronomy 6:4-9 Names of God Bible
4 Listen, Israel: Yahweh is our Elohim. Yahweh is the only God. 5 Love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. 6 Take to heart these words that I give you today. 7 Repeat them to your children. Talk about them when you’re at home or away, when you lie down or get up. 8 Write them down, and tie them around your wrist, and wear them as headbands as a reminder. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

You are praying less than half-heartedly. YHWH will only meet you when you are at your wits end, when you put all your hope in him with all you’ve got AND not before. Not before damn it! The insolence is hard to tolerate on behalf of Jesus’ God.

 

[CrowCross]

Regarding slavery; I want to make 2 points

1. Slavery is a curse from God, stemming from Noah’s son after the flood.
2. Slavery is an economic model demanded by the people of Egypt, as a preference to death.

Slavery has many nuances and it's not limited to the slavery of the 1700's in America.

Sometime biblical slavery is "indentured slavery'.....which has another context to it. There are those whop thunk every aspect of biblical slavery is the way it was in early America when the slaves were captured, delivered by boat, the people auctioned off then put to work.

 

[Matthias]

God cannot lie @Mancurian. Anyone who tells you that he can or that he has hasn’t told you the truth.

 

[Wrangler]

I am ploughing through the OT again. I don't like the God of the OT.
The God of the OT is unpleasant and needy, his only begotten son on the other hand is good

I see you are still sitting in the judgment seat of your Creator.

And you have no understanding of God’s word. The OT gives us the law which only has meaning when consequences for violating it exist. The NT is the life preserver thrown our way to transcend the law (meaning it’s divine consequences).

The OT documents history of people willing to pay political tribute ONLY in the face of certain death. Spiritually, many are so stiff necked, they refuse to pay the smallest tribute. Jesus is not a universalist. Terms and conditions apply with his saving grace.

If the God of the OT who sent his son for us was loving towards his creation, I'd definitely have a different view.

There are 6 things the LORD hates. Do you know this verse? We worship an emotional God and love is not his only attribute!

Creation is an act of love. Allowing Adam and Eve to live rather than die immediately was an act of love, Saving a city from deserved destruction if Abraham can find one righteous person is an act of love. Even negotiating the quantity of good men needed to save the city is an act of love. Our God would not deserve to be worshipped if he were a push over. You‘re offended that your Creator even prioritizes worship of Him so little love and importance do you place on a right relationship with the rock of your salvation!

There is divine justice and pay day is coming. Sending prophets and deliverers (judges) to his chosen people time and again is an act of love. Judging the judge is not going to get you anywhere.

Can you see the difference between the father and the son?
It's as plain as daylight to me.

I don't think that Jesus compares in any way to the God of the OT.

The Chosen had a great scene when Jesus read Isaiah at Luke 4:17-21, ending by splitting verse 2. Asked why he stopped where he did, our Lord said it is not the time for vengeance. This is not at all the same as with Jesus, we side step the wrath of God.
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;
he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor,
and the day of vengeance of our God;

Revelation tells us the first thing God’s Anointed will do upon his return is wipe out the enemies of God. In addition, on Judgement Day, this Jesus you like will kill more humans than anyone in history in the Lake of Fire. Keep that in mind when you identify the qualities of the NT Jesus.

I believe that Jesus died for nothing.

The most ignorant statement ever written.

Our default destiny in annihilation in The Lake of Fire. God has done everything he can do to save us from our stiff necked commitment to self destruction. It takes only faith in his son the size of a mustard seed …

 

[Mancunian]

I see you are still sitting in the judgment seat of your Creator.

And you have no understanding of God’s word. The OT gives us the law which only has meaning when consequences for violating it exist. The NT is the life preserver thrown our way to transcend the law (meaning it’s divine consequences).

The OT documents history of people willing to pay political tribute ONLY in the face of certain death. Spiritually, many are so stiff necked, they refuse to pay the smallest tribute. Jesus is not a universalist. Terms and conditions apply with his saving grace.



There are 6 things the LORD hates. Do you know this verse? We worship an emotional God and love is not his only attribute!

Creation is an act of love. Allowing Adam and Eve to live rather than die immediately was an act of love, Saving a city from deserved destruction if Abraham can find one righteous person is an act of love. Even negotiating the quantity of good men needed to save the city is an act of love. Our God would not deserve to be worshipped if he were a push over. You‘re offended that your Creator even prioritizes worship of Him so little love and importance do you place on a right relationship with the rock of your salvation!

There is divine justice and pay day is coming. Sending prophets and deliverers (judges) to his chosen people time and again is an act of love. Judging the judge is not going to get you anywhere.



The Chosen had a great scene when Jesus read Isaiah at Luke 4:17-21, ending by splitting verse 2. Asked why he stopped where he did, our Lord said it is not the time for vengeance. This is not at all the same as with Jesus, we side step the wrath of God.
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;
he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor,
and the day of vengeance of our God;

Revelation tells us the first thing God’s Anointed will do upon his return is wipe out the enemies of God. In addition, on Judgement Day, this Jesus you like will kill more humans than anyone in history in the Lake of Fire. Keep that in mind when you identify the qualities of the NT Jesus.


The most ignorant statement ever written.

Our default destiny in annihilation in The Lake of Fire. God has done everything he can do to save us from our stiff necked commitment to self destruction. It takes only faith in his son the size of a mustard seed …

Okay and what happens then?
Nobody has ever given me a clear idea of what heaven might look like, what will happen there, or the plans that God has for the saved.
I think that people have very little or no idea what they've signed up to.
Eternity is unimaginable, heaven sounds great until you start to really think about it.

What could God's plan actually be? What is the purpose of living an eternal life?
You spend your lives trying to book your spots without seeing the small print.

I've been on some really crappy holidays when I didn't bother to do my homework on the destination, but luckily those holiday durations were finite.

 

[Mancunian]

God cannot lie @Mancurian. Anyone who tells you that he can or that he has hasn’t told you the truth.

How do you know that God cannot lie?

 

[Mancunian]

And if God can lie, isn't that a bit of a red flag for your eternal lives?

 

[Mancunian]

I'm sure I've written this somewhere before...

To me, signing up for an eternity in heaven is like taking out an insurance policy without reading the small print.
Especially if you think that God is capable of lying.
There a more than a few 'what ifs'.

 

[Matthias]

How do you know that God cannot lie?

You’ve read the Bible. You know it is said in scripture that he can’t. It would be out of keeping with his character to lie.

 

[Matthias]

And if God can lie, isn't that a bit of a red flag for your eternal lives?

It definitely would be a red flag.

Have you ever heard a preacher say that God lies?