Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[ProDeo]

That depends on if you have actually been born again of the Spirit, then you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. The verse you quoted was Paul BEFORE becoming dead to sin. Romans 7:14-25 is Paul in the flesh, meaning he had not been born again of the Spirit yet. He had been a Pharisee at that time and all he had in his mind was the LAW. In Romans 7, ONLY verses 5-6 refer to a person that has been born again, and notice what I highlight.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Lizbeth, this isn't the first time I've pointed out to you the truth about Romans 7:14-25 where your verse is from (18). It really isn't that hard to remember. Go on to chapter 8 and see verse 9. "but we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells within you. And if someone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Where you quoted is still the ministry of death - the Law engraved on stone. Are you not going to study to make yourself approved? Don't stay stuck in the Reformation rut.

I do not agree with you here about verse 18, listing context :

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

No unconverted reasons this way, he/she can't, the carnal mind can not, they have no idea of sin.

What Paul experienced and describing here (IMO) is the indwelling Holy Spirit talking to his conscience, one of the very first things a truly born again will experience that God is holy and he/she becomes aware that things must change. And then the battle against sin begins.

YMMV

 

[Lizbeth]

One thing I noticed during the first 30 years of going to church unsaved, and that was not one prayer was answered. Now 100% of my prayers are answered. That is a sign you are filled with the Spirit, because the Spirit knows the will of the Father and tells you what to pray. 1 John 3:21-22 "21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight."

Someone who has been born again of the Spirit has a super-sensitive conscience to obey. That is where the laws of the New Covenant are written.

Romans 7:14-25 should not apply to you at all. And one problem with Galatians 5:17 is the publishers wrote Spirit instead of spirit, meaning our own mind. Because you cannot be in the flesh and in the Spirit at the same time unless you grieve or quench the Spirit. But your super-sensitive conscience should be able to keep you from giving in to whatever sin would quench the Spirit. I'm sure I grieved the Spirit at times when I was not yet mature in the fruit of the Spirit, but never to the point of quenching Him.

Yes, in my case I received the Lord and was born again first and attended churches but I have found more of my prayers being answered in the years after leaving the churches....I take that to be because of growing faith as well, because I began to grow and experience the Lord much more afterwards. But it sounds to me from your testimony that you hadn't received Christ all those years in church, perhaps you were raised in Christianity but hadn't yet encountered and received the Lord for yourself until 30 years on...? Sounds like He gave you a good measure of grace to kind of catch you up.

Yes, I agree about having a sensitive conscience, although we can have problems that we aren't aware of too. (Usually we're the last to know, lol) But in the process of sanctification, in the crucible of life being refined like silver we are going to find dross coming to the surface....that is not to condemn us, but for the purpose that we do become aware of our faults and shortcomings in order that we be able to repent as we seek and allow the Lord to deal with them and skim them off. He's not just purifying our outward behaviour, but our hearts inwardly too.

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm not preaching a false gospel...so, please get down from your soap box of quick sentences and capital letters.

oh my friend i must have missed this post .
And I am not saying you were . BUT i darn sure warn us all
that SOMEONE HERE SURE IS . and i am seeing likes being put on his posts .
So lets not support any one who brings such a thing . IF even i did , THEN RID ME from this site .
Its that dire important to expose all who bring a false gospel .
SO if EVEN I , or any , or even an angel preaches ANY other gospel unto YOU
EXPOSE . i would say cast them out , ONLY they wont do it . cause under the judge not
God is love slogan churches now allow just about anything to remain in its chambers .
But we , WE must expose . Now to the trenches one and to the trenches all .
wait i have to make a correction about something .
WHEN I said that under the judge not God is love slogan that churches now allow just about anything
to remain , WELL anything BUT THE TRUTH . that they do not allow to remain but cast it out as hate .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, in my case I received the Lord and was born again first and attended churches but I have found more of my prayers being answered in the years after leaving the churches....I take that to be because of growing faith as well, because I began to grow and experience the Lord much more afterwards. But it sounds to me from your testimony that you hadn't received Christ all those years in church, perhaps you were raised in Christianity but hadn't yet encountered and received the Lord for yourself until 30 years on...? Sounds like He gave you a good measure of grace to kind of catch you up.

Yes, I agree about having a sensitive conscience, although we can have problems that we aren't aware of too. (Usually we're the last to know, lol) But in the process of sanctification, in the crucible of life being refined like silver we are going to find dross coming to the surface....that is not to condemn us, but for the purpose that we do become aware of our faults and shortcomings in order that we be able to repent as we seek and allow the Lord to deal with them and skim them off. He's not just purifying our outward behaviour, but our hearts inwardly too.

Always remember , if even i were to bring another gospel unto you than that which ye had received ,
Cast my rump outta here sister . WE preach JESUS sister . And that is who OUR HOPE is IN .
For there simply is no other name given under all of heaven whereby one may be saved .
And all who do hear and repent not but remain in their false relioins , CALL GOD A LIAR .
Never forget that . For the harlot is seducing many and by means of her love will lead them
to the day of their own destruction . BY the very GOD and CHRIST her love and her peace DENIED .

 

[ProDeo]

Many are called but few are chosen.

I know you are going to dislike what I have to say.

Context is a parable directed at the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews.

And indeed few believed, were chosen.

Here you are talking to believers.

 

[ProDeo]

yes all will be judged by their works .
And how i shudder for all who called GOD a liar .

Friend, nobody here calls God a liar.

And who calls God a liar , HE who beleives NOT the testimony that GOD gave of the Son .
Visualize this next scenario .
On the day of the Lord two men stood before him .
One a very zealous for doing good works , feeding the poor
The other the same very zealous for doing good works , feeding the poor .
But one was cast into the lake of fire
and the other rejoiced in paradise with the LORD forever .
And now a word .
HE who recieves HIS testimony has set to his seal that GOD IS TRUE .
HE who beleives not the testimony that GOD g ave on the SON has called GOD a LIAR .
So who so ever hears the gospel and fails to beleive ON JESUS THE CHRIST
OH THEY DO call GOD a liar .
And seeing no man is righteous
LET ALONE one who calls GOD A LIAR is righteous .
I suggest we heed no inclusive god at all .
Rather reminding all of the dire need to BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
and to be doing good works AS WELL .

 

[Episkopos]

I know you are going to dislike what I have to say.

LIkewise. I have to burst your bubble

Context is a parable directed at the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews.

Context....Jesus was speaking to God's chosen people. You maybe look down on them as being inferior, but that is the hugest of errors. Paul says we can be rejected as easily as they were...and we will be, especially with the kind of attitude we see here..all the hubris and building castles in the sky, thinking we are more special than the Jews.

Being born of the Spirit puts us into a higher race of faith....not a higher master race. As many as failed the walk in the wilderness among the Israelites, is as many as will fail the grace of God. And people will be shocked on that day....weeping and gnashing of teeth...and many will have an eternity to ponder all the warnings they disregarded.

Here you are talking to believers.

I'm talking to religious ideologues for the most part. A lot of smug hubris and self-interested religious extremists....truth be told. And a people no different than the ones whom Jesus castigated so soundly. They didn't repent and neither will you. Too harsh sounding, too uncomfortable, too inconvenient.

It's only when you think you could be a horrible criminal that you make the effort to be a model citizen. It's only when you think you are no better than a Pharisee that you begin to fear the Lord.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If the forgiveness of God is not there for you when you sin, and you do, then you have no hope. You're not going to make it.

My conscience is clear. I have no sin. Not because they are all "forgiven," but because I walk in the Spirit and do not commit any willful sins. That is the sign of a true Christian. True Christians have been set free from sin, and are slaves of righteousness.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

One doctrine you probably haven't heard, unless by me, is there are two types of sins. 1. Willful sins against the commandments of God called "the flesh," also called sins unto death. 2. unintentional mistakes caused by immature fruit of the Spirit.

1 John 3:4-5 and 9 is about number 1. "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." and "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

1 John 1:7 is about number 2. "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

All sin is unto death for those who do not have the protection of God's forgiveness and his righteousness by the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ's sacrifice. All born again believing persons have that protection. Their sin does not condemn them because Jesus whom they believe and trust in by faith is alive and continually interceding before the Father in heaven on their behalf, not condemning them before the Father.

Even the sins for which a person must be put to death according to the law are forgiven in the ministry of Christ. The law had no provision to forgive those sins and allow the offender to live. But the Good News is that through Christ what could not be forgiven under the ministry of the Levites is forgiven under the better and lasting ministry of Christ (Acts 13:38-39).

The only sin that can condemn the born again believer is the sin committed in a deliberate and willful rejection of Christ in unbelief a.k.a. blasphemy of the Spirit. Because you can't have the benefit of a sacrifice that you have rejected in unbelief. Everyone who confesses to believe in Christ has to decide for themselves if they are capable of committing the sin of unbelief.

 

[Episkopos]

All sin is unto death for those who do not have the protection of God's forgiveness and his righteousness by the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ's sacrifice. All born again believing persons have that protection. Their sin does not condemn them because Jesus whom they believe and trust in by faith is alive and continually interceding before the Father in heaven on their behalf, not condemning them before the Father.

Even the sins for which a person must be put to death according to the law are forgiven in the ministry of Christ. The law had no provision to forgive those sins and allow the offender to live. But the Good News is that through Christ what could not be forgiven under the ministry of the Levites is forgiven under the better and lasting ministry of Christ (Acts 13:38-39).

The only sin that can condemn the born again believer is the sin committed in a deliberate and willful rejection of Christ in unbelief a.k.a. blasphemy of the Spirit. Because you can't have the benefit of a sacrifice that you have rejected in unbelief. Everyone who confesses to believe in Christ has to decide for themselves if they are capable of committing the sin of unbelief.

What you are trying to promote here is salvation from God's law, not salvation from that which breaks it. This is the polar opposite of the gospel. You want the good news to be for those who sin as opposed to what is good for the eternal kingdom of God.

For your scheme to hold any weight Jesus would have had to come to abolish the law...to "take away the laws from the world" rather than "take away the sins of the world".

Yet Jesus calls many ministers of this upside down gospel "lawless" as He rejects them forever from His presence.

Jesus came not to abolish the law but through Him we might overcome as He did.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...our naming and claiming of that sacrifice for ourselves has NO VALIDITY. It is God alone who justifies.

 

[amigo de christo]

Friend, nobody here calls God a liar.

That sounds way too ecumenical and seeker friendly an answer you just gave .
SO allow me a question .
ARE YOU SO SURE and so CERTAIN about that .
IF SO how about we put that to the test .
HOW many christains do you see that hold a rainbow high . calling that evil good .
THUS calling THE GOD who said it was an abomination a liar , and doing it
saying GOD Is love .
Now again i ask you ARE YOU SURE about that .
cause how many christains are sitting under those who hold the benjamins high and teach them all about THE LOVE OF MONEY
and yet JESUS SPOKE against coveteousness . AND all doing so in name of JESUS . thus calling THE JESUS a liar .
ARE YOU SO SURE there are none here WHO are calling GOD a liar .
IF SO
ALLOW me to introduce you to ecumeincal inclusivity and its we are one lets find common ground .
As they sold to all false religoins and to christendom A FAT LIE , THAT DARN SURE CALLS GOD A LIAR
but again is sold under the banner that God is love and this is his peace plan .
ARE YOU SURE that none here are calling GOD a liar .
THAT IS what I THOUGHT . no sir many have long been calling THE GOD a liar , HIS WORDS as though lies
and hIS GOSPEL as t hough false . and all doing it saying GOD IS LOVE and DONT JUDGE .
Sorry pro deo but this aint my first RO DEO .

 

[Episkopos]

Sorry pro deo but this aint my first RO DEO .

Good one! RO DEO...PRO DEO ;)

But the only one calling God a liar is you..and by extension all who agree with you. We see things as we are. And because your eye is dark all is darkness. Because you have no trust in the words of Jesus...just holding Him up as an idol...you will constantly contradict everything that Jesus has said. I hold you accountable to that even if no one else here has the honesty or courage or understanding to do so. You need help my friend. You can't see your true condition.

If you have to call Jesus a liar then you are not in a good place.

In a previous post you called me out when I repeated what Jesus said...receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man and get a righteous man's reward. To you that's way too inclusive. You don't know the bible and because you don't you thought I was speaking from opinions just like you do. But that was Jesus speaking...and you are so dishonest you can't even admit you blew it. Just like @Lizbeth. Such dishonesty and lack of respect for God.

So I call you out once again because you lie like a sidewalk and accuse others of doing what you are doing...just like your minions here.

 

[amigo de christo]

Good one! RO DEO...PRO DEO ;)

But the only one calling God a liar is you..and by extension all who agree with you. We see things as we are. And because your eye is dark all is darkness. Because you have no trust in the words of Jesus...just holding Him up as an idol...you will constantly contradict everything that Jesus has said. I hold you accountable to that even if no one else here has the honesty or courage or understanding to do so. You need help my friend. You can't see your true condition.

If you have to call Jesus a liar then you are not in a good place.

In a previous post you called me out when I repeated what Jesus said...receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man and get a righteous man's reward. To you that's way too inclusive. You don't know the bible and because you don't you thought I was speaking from opinions just like you do. But that was Jesus speaking...and you are so dishonest you can't even admit you blew it. Just like @Lizbeth. Such dishonesty and lack of respect for God.

So I call you out once again because you lie like a sidewalk and accuse others of doing what you are doing...just like your minions here.

You the one calling JESUS the liar and you use his own words to DO so epi .
IT aint me picking and choosing His words . ITS always been you .
However seeing this generation is very inclusive , though not all have bought the same lie you did ..............YET .
and yeah i say YET cause they soon will .
I SEEM to remember THIS JESUS you always seem to t ry and quoate and use his words agaisnt HIS OWN GOSPEL ,
HAD THIS to say .
AND i never once you seen preach it , and i always see you hammer those who do
. JESUS Did not say go into the world and teach them the things i said , BUT DONT TELL THEM THEY HAVE TO BELEIVE ON ME
In fact JESUS did not do as you do epi . For when a man reminds even an atheist of his dire need
TO DO , Exactly what JESUS told the desciples to tell them to do , YA CALL IT RELIGUOS extremsim .
JESUS didnt say go into all the world and gather all the religoins cause they all serve the same GOD in different ways .
JESUS DIDNT say GO into all the land and find common ground .
JESUS said TO BELIEVE ON HIM and TO observe all things HE DID teach .

 

[Episkopos]

You the one calling JESUS the liar and you use his own words to DO so epi .
IT aint me picking and choosing His words . ITS always been you .
However seeing this generation is very inclusive , though not all have bought the same lie you did ..............YET .
and yeah i say YET cause they soon will .
I SEEM to remember THIS JESUS you always seem to t ry and quoate and use his words agaisnt HIS OWN GOSPEL ,
HAD THIS to say .
AND i never once you seen preach it , and i always see you hammer those who do
. JESUS Did not say go into the world and teach them the things i said , BUT DONT TELL THEM THEY HAVE TO BELEIVE ON ME
In fact JESUS did not do as you do epi . For when a man reminds even an atheist of his dire need
TO DO , Exactly what JESUS told the desciples to tell them to do , YA CALL IT RELIGUOS extremsim .
JESUS didnt say go into all the world and gather all the religoins cause they all serve the same GOD in different ways .
JESUS DIDNT say GO into all the land and find common ground .
JESUS said TO BELIEVE ON HIM and TO observe all things HE DID teach .

Jesus said... If you love Me obey My commandments. AND...not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord (or accepts or believes ON Me) will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father in heaven.

Repent from your religious hubris and virtue signalling and be converted to Christ.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

What you are trying to promote here is salvation from God's law, not salvation from that which breaks it.

What I am promoting is that through faith in Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin we are saved from the PENALTY of the law. Not saved from the requirements of the law (though some of it's requirements find their fulfilment in Christ's work on the cross and do not require further literal fulfilment by the people of God). Through the same faith by which we were justified we uphold the law.

Romans 3:30-31
30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

We uphold it, not as one who is 'under' the weight of the law, as the unconverted are, but as one who upholds its requirements victoriously through the power of faith.

1 John 5:3-4
3his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.


What some people don't understand is just because it is incumbent on the born again person to obey God's commands we don't do it for the purpose of relying on that righteousness, the righteousness of our works, to be made righteous and, thus, eligible to enter the kingdom of God. It is through God's forgiveness and the giving of the Holy Spirit that we obtain the right standing with God that makes us eligible to enter the kingdom. No ones works are good enough to get in on the basis of their works. The giving of the law proves that. In fact, that's why the law was given. It reveals our unrighteousness, not our righteousness (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:22-25), and leads us to the righteousness that is credited to us by faith, apart from the works of the law (Romans 4:6).

 

[ProDeo]

LIkewise. I have to burst your bubble

Looking forward

Context....Jesus was speaking to God's chosen people. You maybe look down on them as being inferior,

I don't, you ?

Imagine you and me, born as a Jew in Israel in the time of Jesus. Raised up in the Law of Moses, holding the commandments. Then when you have the privilege to meet the Son of God, hear Him speak. And you recognize the language He speaks, the things He teaches are a) familiar and b) also total new. Many new things, the many "I am ..." What is the chance you would believe Jesus as an orthodox religious Jew. I know my answer, most probably I would reject His teachings holding and cling to what you have learned. What about you ?

Unless of course as Jesus said --

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

Matt 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
Matt 16:14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
Matt 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Matt 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

And as such I understand the (in context) phrase : Many are called but few are chosen as to the Jews of His time.

And correct Jesus was, few believed in Him.

I'm talking to religious ideologues for the most part. A lot of smug hubris and self-interested religious extremists....truth be told. And a people no different than the ones whom Jesus castigated so soundly. They didn't repent and neither will you. Too harsh sounding, too uncomfortable, too inconvenient.

I know, that's the price everybody has to pay discussing you. You are forgiven once again.

It's only when you think you could be a horrible criminal that you make the effort to be a model citizen. It's only when you think you are no better than a Pharisee that you begin to fear the Lord.

Do you apply that on yourself too ?

 

[ProDeo]

Friend, nobody here calls God a liar.

That sounds way too ecumenical and seeker friendly an answer you just gave .
SO allow me a question .
ARE YOU SO SURE and so CERTAIN about that .

People can be wrong, it does not mean they call God a liar.

Simple.

Not so ?

Sorry pro deo but this aint my first RO DEO .

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

For your scheme to hold any weight Jesus would have had to come to abolish the law...to "take away the laws from the world" rather than "take away the sins of the world".

Hopefully now you can see there is no scheme on my part to abolish the law, but rather to uphold it through the victory of faith.

The problem is many people associated with the church think keeping the commands of God is what makes them righteous so as to be able to enter the kingdom of God. No. It is the cleansing forgiveness of God in Christ received by faith and the righteousness he credits for that faith that makes a person righteous enough to get into the kingdom of God. That is the righteousness that comes from God and not from the law.

Romans 3:20-21
20no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known

Philippians 3:9
9...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in a Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith (not works).

 

[Episkopos]

Do you apply that on yourself too ?

Of course. As a human I'm capable of any manner of evil. How do we know who we are under the hardest pressure? We can only surrender all to God...and pray for His strength knowing that the hardest test of our lives could be right around the corner.

What I see is that people have run away from the truth even before being tested. The wicked flee when no one is pursuing but the righteous are as bold as a lion.

 

[Episkopos]

Hopefully now you can see there is no scheme on my part to abolish the law, but rather to uphold it through the victory of faith.

And yet you cling to a forgiveness that excuses any present or future sin. There is no such guarantee from God.

Your view is like someone in a bathing suit riding a motorcycle. Not wise, but you may get away with it to the point where you no longer see it as dangerous. Until one day it is fatal. All you need is that one time when your ideology betrays the reality you are about to face.

The problem is many people associated with the church think keeping the commands of God is what makes them righteous so as to be able to enter the kingdom of God.

Yes and no. There are 2 standards to the gospel. The righteous standard is to become like a child...doing righteousness, fearing God and being humble. It takes real faith to fear God after all. That's on a human level. This is based on God's MERCY.

Then there is the grace through faith standard based on holiness and resurrection life whereby no works can supply the grace to walk as Jesus walked. It is ONLY by faith that we attain to that grace. The grace to overcome as Jesus did. This is based on God's GLORY.

So you are mixing the standards as you have been taught to. A few will survive this mixture...because they are humble...but MANY evangelical types will be rejected because of a lack of knowledge of God's ways...and because they didn't heed the warnings from God.

No. It is the cleansing forgiveness of God in Christ received by faith and the righteousness he credits for that faith that makes a person righteous enough to get into the kingdom of God. That is the righteousness that comes from God and not from the law.

You have not yet understood the purpose of Jesus' coming. Jesus didn't come to forgive us. He came to set us free from sin. To walk as He walked. THAT is the gospel in full resolution. But God is ALSO merciful with those who show mercy to others.

There is the glory side with the Bride...and the mercy side with the guests. Notice the goodness and severity of God.

Romans 3:20-21
20no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known

Philippians 3:9
9...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in a Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith (not works).

You are missing Paul's meaning. He is comparing not stating the whole truth of any given statement. It is shorthand. What God says is this...
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Ps 142:3