Did Jesus return around 70 AD?

[Jay Ross]

Did Jesus return around 70 AD?

NO, it is very difficult for anyone to return around 70 AD because 70 AD is difficult to find as it is on the fourth cardinal axis which is used for measurement and very difficult to hold onto to wrap oneself around..

 

[shepherdsword]

The proof is in the Bible. There are interpretations that cover all your questions, just like there are interpretations that explain Premill and Amill positions.

The problem I see is that folks tend to say it should be obvious there was no coming in 70AD but then fail to present any physical evidence. All it would take is to have a physically dead body of David, an apostle, or any other believer prior to 70AD. Where’s the evidence? We can’t prove a negative, so we can’t prove Christ came by saying there aren’t any physical bodies of believers but we can prove a positive, by presenting a physical body and thus proving there wasn’t a coming in 70AD.

There is no evidence as of yet that Noah’s ark existed but we all believe it because we believe the Bible is true. When a person reads the Bible and comes to the understanding that a soon coming was prophesied, they believe it and come to the conclusion that it happened in 70AD based on the secular writings of people like Josephus.

The burden of physical evidence is on you to prove the resurrection happened. There is no physical evidence if it never happened. There should be some if it did happen. Please show it to us. Unless a body has been mummified it is long in the dust by now

A human body typically takes 10 to 15 years to decompose down to a skeleton in a standard casket, and another 80 to 100 years (or longer) for the bones themselves to disintegrate and return to the soil. [1]
Total decomposition time depends heavily on burial conditions, environment, and preparation:

Timeline Breakdown

• • Soft Tissue Decay (1 to 10 years): Soft organs and muscles liquefy and break down via autolysis (self-digestion) and putrefaction (bacterial action). In uncoffined or natural burials, soft tissues vanish in about 1 year, leading to skeletonization in 5 to 10 years. In a standard sealed casket with embalming chemicals, reaching a complete skeleton takes 10 to 15 years (and up to 50+ years if tightly sealed in metal). [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • Skeletonization to Disintegration (50 to 100+ years): Once only the skeleton remains, the inorganic and organic components of bone slowly leach into the surrounding earth. This final breakdown into mineral dust or soil generally takes another 80 years or more, depending on whether the bones are exposed or buried
  • How many years since 70AD?

 

[grafted branch]

The burden of physical evidence is on you to prove the resurrection happened. There is no physical evidence if it never happened. There should be some if it did happen. Please show it to us. Unless a body has been mummified it is long in the dust by now

A human body typically takes 10 to 15 years to decompose down to a skeleton in a standard casket, and another 80 to 100 years (or longer) for the bones themselves to disintegrate and return to the soil. [1]
Total decomposition time depends heavily on burial conditions, environment, and preparation:

Timeline Breakdown

• • Soft Tissue Decay (1 to 10 years): Soft organs and muscles liquefy and break down via autolysis (self-digestion) and putrefaction (bacterial action). In uncoffined or natural burials, soft tissues vanish in about 1 year, leading to skeletonization in 5 to 10 years. In a standard sealed casket with embalming chemicals, reaching a complete skeleton takes 10 to 15 years (and up to 50+ years if tightly sealed in metal). [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • Skeletonization to Disintegration (50 to 100+ years): Once only the skeleton remains, the inorganic and organic components of bone slowly leach into the surrounding earth. This final breakdown into mineral dust or soil generally takes another 80 years or more, depending on whether the bones are exposed or buried
  • How many years since 70AD?

A person can’t prove a negative. I can’t prove that there are no bodies of believers prior to 70AD. There always could be a body that has yet to be discovered. A person can prove a positive by presenting a body of a believer who died prior to 70AD.

It might be difficult because a human body decomposes but nevertheless we do have things like James’ ossuary. All I’m really saying is there is no proof that a resurrection didn’t happen and that is the only thing that can be proven physically speaking.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Daniel 12:1-2 it says at that time shall Michael stand up, with a resurrection of some into everlasting life and some into everlasting contempt.

Yes, that is talking about the resurrection of ALL of the dead at the coming hour that Jesus spoke about. Not all of the dead have been resurrected, so it hasn't happened yet. Don't turn something simple into something complicated.

In Revelation 12:7 Michael fights the dragon.

Does Michael take a stand to fight the dragon at a future final coming of Christ? If the answer is no, then John 5:28 is talking about the Matthew 27 resurrection or a 70AD resurrection.

I don't believe Revelation 12:7 has any direct relation to Daniel 12:1-2. Revelation 12:7 is talking about Satan and his angels being kicked out of heaven around the time of Christ's death and resurrection at which point Satan was no longer able to accuse believers before God in heaven anymore because their sins had been covered by the blood of Christ. And, again, Matthew 27:52-53 says nothing about anyone being resurrected unto condemnation and to shame and everlasting contempt. You're trying to relate unrelated verses.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did Jesus return around 70 AD?

NO, it is very difficult for anyone to return around 70 AD because 70 AD is difficult to find as it is on the fourth cardinal axis which is used for measurement and very difficult to hold onto to wrap oneself around..

 

[shepherdsword]

A person can’t prove a negative.

Then why are you asking me to prove one? I am asking you to prove the resurrection happened. (positive)You are asking me to prove it didn't(negative)

 

[grafted branch]

I don't believe Revelation 12:7 has any direct relation to Daniel 12:1-2.

Is the Michael in Daniel 12 the same Michael in Revelation 12? If it is the same Michael then Revelation 12 is when Michael stands up.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is the Michael in Daniel 12 the same Michael in Revelation 12? If it is the same Michael then Revelation 12 is when Michael stands up.

You are just making an assumption for no real reason other than that both verses mention Michael. That is not how to interpret scripture. The context of each passage is different, as I already explained. Do you see any resurrection referenced in Revelation 12? It's not there. You're trying to relate unrelated verses, as I already said. And, you continue to not address what I'm saying about Matthew 27:52-53 as far as the fact that it says nothing about anyone being resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt at that time. That will happen in the future when all of the dead throughout the world are resurrected and then judged. The judgment of all people can be seen in Matthew 25:31-46. That clearly has not happened yet. It will happen after all of the dead are resurrected in the future when Jesus returns.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus most likely was talking about the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection.

Not likely at all.
Jesus had not ascended at that point.
We know that when he appears again after ascending, we will have a body like his glorious body and that hasn't happened to anyone yet. Mortality will finally put on immortality.

 

[grafted branch]

Then why are you asking me to prove one? I am asking you to prove the resurrection happened. (positive)You are asking me to prove it didn't(negative)

There are empty graves in Jerusalem but if I say that proves a resurrection nobody’s going to simply believe it because that’s circumstantial evidence. There are no other records of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection but we believe it happened because the Bible says so.

It all comes down to how we interpret the scripture. Again, if a body of a pre 70AD believer was discovered, almost nobody would think a 70AD resurrection occurred.

 

[grafted branch]

You are just making an assumption for no real reason other than that both verses mention Michael. That is not how to interpret scripture. The context of each passage is different, as I already explained. Do you see any resurrection referenced in Revelation 12? It's not there. You're trying to relate unrelated verses, as I already said. And, you continue to not address what I'm saying about Matthew 27:52-53 as far as the fact that it says nothing about anyone being resurrected unto shame and everlasting contempt at that time. That will happen in the future when all of the dead throughout the world are resurrected and then judged. The judgment of all people can be seen in Matthew 25:31-46. That clearly has not happened yet. It will happen after all of the dead are resurrected in the future when Jesus returns.

I’m interpreting scripture with scripture. There is only one Michael and he takes a stand in Revelation 12. I’m sorry that doesn’t fit your narrative but it does fit the Preterist view.

 

[grafted branch]

Not likely at all.
Jesus had not ascended at that point.
We know that when he appears again after ascending, we will have a body like his glorious body and that hasn't happened to anyone yet. Mortality will finally put on immortality.

Matthew 27:53 says “And came out of the graves after his resurrection …”

It happened after His resurrection.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is when believers have been born again through the Spirit of Christ. It is when we spiritually have part in Christ, Who is the "first resurrection." I agree this happens in life before we die, when we have part in the first resurrection partaking of Christ's resurrection life, our eternal spiritual life, living and reigning with Him physically on earth, but spiritually in the Kingdom of God in heaven.

You got it.

 

[jeffweeder]

Matthew 27:53 says “And came out of the graves after his resurrection …”

It happened after His resurrection.

But Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father.
The resurrection and glorification of the body occur future whether dead or alive at the time.

Titus 2
11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to reject ungodliness and worldly (immoral) desires, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives [lives with a purpose that reflect spiritual maturity] in this present age, 13 awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who [willingly] gave Himself [to be crucified] on our behalf to redeem us and purchase our freedom from all wickedness, and to purify for Himself a chosen and very special people to be His own possession, who are enthusiastic for doing what is good.

Phil 3
20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.

 

[shepherdsword]

There are empty graves in Jerusalem but if I say that proves a resurrection nobody’s going to simply believe it because that’s circumstantial evidence. There are no other records of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection but we believe it happened because the Bible says so.

It all comes down to how we interpret the scripture. Again, if a body of a pre 70AD believer was discovered, almost nobody would think a 70AD resurrection occurred.

Physical remains and skeletal fragments from people who lived and died before or around A.D. 70 (the destruction of Jerusalem) still exist today, preserved mostly through archaeology.

What Evidence Survives From Pre-70 A.D.?

• First-Century Ossuaries (Bone Boxes): Thousands of limestone ossuaries from the Second Temple period (roughly 20 B.C. to A.D. 70) have been excavated in and around Jerusalem. Following traditional Jewish burial practices of the era, bodies were left in tombs to decompose for about a year, and the remaining bones were then collected and placed inside these stone boxes.
• The Crucified Man (Yehohanan): Discovered in 1968 in a tomb at Giv'at ha-Mivtar (north of Jerusalem), the physical heel bones of a crucified Jewish man named Yehohanan still have a large iron nail driven through them, providing direct forensic proof of first-century Roman execution methods before the 70 A.D. revolt.
• The Burnt House: Excavated in Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter, this aristocratic residence was destroyed during the Roman conflagration of 70 A.D. Archaeologists uncovered ash, a stone weight bearing the name of the priestly Katros family, and actual human skeletal remains (such as a young woman's forearm bones) left behind in the kitchen fire.
• Masada and Other Outposts: Skeletal remains and artifacts from Jewish defenders who perished during the broader First Jewish Revolt (A.D. 66–73) have been recovered at desert fortresses like Masada.

 

[grafted branch]

But Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father.
The resurrection and glorification of the body occur future whether dead or alive at the time.

Titus 2
11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to reject ungodliness and worldly (immoral) desires, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives [lives with a purpose that reflect spiritual maturity] in this present age, 13 awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who [willingly] gave Himself [to be crucified] on our behalf to redeem us and purchase our freedom from all wickedness, and to purify for Himself a chosen and very special people to be His own possession, who are enthusiastic for doing what is good.

Phil 3
20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.

Jesus ascended shortly after His resurrection then came back. In John 20:16 Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He had not ascended to the Father yet. In John 20:27 Thomas can touch Him. So Jesus ascended and returned in a short period of time after His resurrection.

 

[grafted branch]

Physical remains and skeletal fragments from people who lived and died before or around A.D. 70 (the destruction of Jerusalem) still exist today, preserved mostly through archaeology.

What Evidence Survives From Pre-70 A.D.?

• First-Century Ossuaries (Bone Boxes): Thousands of limestone ossuaries from the Second Temple period (roughly 20 B.C. to A.D. 70) have been excavated in and around Jerusalem. Following traditional Jewish burial practices of the era, bodies were left in tombs to decompose for about a year, and the remaining bones were then collected and placed inside these stone boxes.
• The Crucified Man (Yehohanan): Discovered in 1968 in a tomb at Giv'at ha-Mivtar (north of Jerusalem), the physical heel bones of a crucified Jewish man named Yehohanan still have a large iron nail driven through them, providing direct forensic proof of first-century Roman execution methods before the 70 A.D. revolt.
• The Burnt House: Excavated in Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter, this aristocratic residence was destroyed during the Roman conflagration of 70 A.D. Archaeologists uncovered ash, a stone weight bearing the name of the priestly Katros family, and actual human skeletal remains (such as a young woman's forearm bones) left behind in the kitchen fire.
• Masada and Other Outposts: Skeletal remains and artifacts from Jewish defenders who perished during the broader First Jewish Revolt (A.D. 66–73) have been recovered at desert fortresses like Masada.

Sure, there are remains of people who lived prior to 70AD but it would take the remains of a known believer prior to 70AD to shut down the 70AD resurrection belief. I would say it wouldn’t have to be 100% certain but at least a reasonable amount of evidence pointing to a pre 70AD believer’s body still in existence would work.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus ascended shortly after His resurrection then came back. In John 20:16 Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He had not ascended to the Father yet. In John 20:27 Thomas can touch Him. So Jesus ascended and returned in a short period of time after His resurrection.

The glorification resurrection event occurs to the living and dead saints simultaneously when the Lord returns.
Not the same event as matt 27 as the disciples at the time were not glorified in body.

 

[claninja]

They are? How do you think that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 supports the idea of Jesus returning in 70 AD? And Matthew 16:28 doesn't support it, either. That verse is related to Christ's transfiguration that is described immediately after that verse.

From a grammatical standpoint, in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 17 Paul writes “we who are alive, who are left.” Compare that with how he refers to the dead: “those who have fallen asleep” (vv. 13-14). Paul never says “those of ‘us‘ who have fallen asleep.” He keeps the dead in the third person and the living in the first person. Nothing in the passage signals that “we” is merely generic. There is no hypothetical marker (“if some of us are alive”), no reference to a later generation, and no mention of his own death. The setting reinforces this: this is likely Paul’s earliest letter, written to believers shocked that some among them had already died, which assumes that being alive at Christ’s return was the expected norm. The most natural reading is that Paul included himself among those who might be alive at the Lord’s coming, while leaving the exact timing open. In other words, he believed it would happen in his lifetime.


As to Matthew 16:28, I would argue its best read as the completion of v. 27, not as a forecast of the transfiguration. Verse 28 opens with “Truly I say to you,” and it continues the same subject, the Son of Man coming, using the same verb (erchomai) that v. 27 uses for his coming in glory with his angels. Verse 28 simply narrows the timeframe: “some of those standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” The transfiguration reading has a real problem with the partitive “some of those standing here,” because that phrase implies a window long enough for some to die and others to survive. Six days is not likely that window, and the three disciples who went up the mountain were not “some” in any meaningful contrast with the rest, since all of them would have survived a week. Nor does the transfiguration show the Son of Man “coming” in any sense Matthew uses elsewhere. He is transfigured, not arriving, and Matthew never calls it a coming. In contrast, Matthew uses “Son of Man coming” for within-generation events in 10:23, 24:30-34, and 26:64, where the audience is told they will see it.

You mean the second coming of Christ? It presents that He will come in like manner from heaven as He ascended there, which was visibly and bodily (Acts 1:9-11). That did not happen in 70 AD. It presents His coming as being from heaven to "the air" where He will meet His people who are gathered to Him, including the resurrected dead in Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17). That most certainly did not happen in 70 AD. It presents it as Jesus destroying the heavens and the earth when He returns (Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:7,10-12) which certainly did not happen in 70 AD.

I think acts 1:9-11 is the strongest contender for a physical, bodily descension. And I would also agree that a physical body descension did not happen in 70ad.

However, that does not negate that Christ taught it would happen within his generation, nor does it negate that the disciples believed it would happen within their lifetime.

 

[ScottA]

From a grammatical standpoint, in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 17 Paul writes “we who are alive, who are left.” Compare that with how he refers to the dead: “those who have fallen asleep” (vv. 13-14). Paul never says “those of ‘us‘ who have fallen asleep.” He keeps the dead in the third person and the living in the first person. Nothing in the passage signals that “we” is merely generic. There is no hypothetical marker (“if some of us are alive”), no reference to a later generation, and no mention of his own death. The setting reinforces this: this is likely Paul’s earliest letter, written to believers shocked that some among them had already died, which assumes that being alive at Christ’s return was the expected norm. The most natural reading is that Paul included himself among those who might be alive at the Lord’s coming, while leaving the exact timing open. In other words, he believed it would happen in his lifetime.

One point at a time is best.

Paul did explain, but not in that passage. But before just going to the other passage where he explains-- What scenario would make Paul's statement of "we who are alive and remain" not limited to whether he was dead of alive at any given time? Can you think of any possibility?