Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Judge Hardcastle]

Yes the righteousness of men.

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 1

Let's see you do a dance that twists the words from God...

That is the righteousness of law ("walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord").

As long as an individual under the law did not commit a sin that was unforgiveable that required they die, and availed themselves of the forgiveness that was available through the Levitical priesthood and sacrifice when they failed in other things, a person had the righteousness that is by the law. But, surely, they also had the righteousness that is credited to a person by faith in God's promise to Abraham. But the text seems to be specifically addressing the righteousness they had by law.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, that is your reworked salvific understanding of the gospel that you have maintained for years. Two saving conversions through two matching complementary infusions of your imagined form of 'grace' across two confusing levels of walk, where it is impossible to know when someone starts the introductory level or when they move on from it into the second. And then if someone slips back, you also seem to teach they return to the first stage and must start over... your doctrine is about as clear as mud.

If this simple explanation of God's ways confuses you, wait till you hear how babies are born!

 

[Episkopos]

You don't do that, so you're not going to be "translated into the heavenly realm."

Too late. I have been twice translated into Zion to walk where Jesus is.

And even if you could eventually always "walk in the perfection of God's own righteousness" there's still the guilt of your past failure to do that standing in the way between you and being "translated into the heavenly realm."

Translation is by faith....irregardless of past mistakes and sins. God's agenda is one of love, depth and intimacy....and POWER. All you know is the dogmatic version of the faith that denies the power of it.

God's forgiveness received by faith is the only way to be righteous enough to enter the kingdom of God.

This is false and based on religious assumptions. Have you entered into the heavenly realm??? Do you seek first the kingdom? Or are you otherwise occupied with life in the temporal realm?

You don't walk in God's righteousness well enough to enter in on the basis of your righteous walk.

That's not the criteria to be translated into eternal life...read Heb 11.

Your unrighteousness destroys any hope you have of entering into the kingdom on the merit of your righteous behavior. Only God's forgiveness can make your unrighteousness that keeps you out of the kingdom of God go away.

Only the translation into the eternal realm TELLS me for certain that I have been both forgiven and accepted into the higher walk of faith.

 

[Episkopos]

That is the righteousness of law ("walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord").

You are very confused. The righteousness of the law includes doing the holiness commandments in one's own power. There are 2 tablets of commandments given to Israel....for holiness (4 laws) and righteousness (6 laws).


Abel did not follow the law of Moses yet he was deemed to be righteous by God. You really need instruction...,because ALL your understanding is tainted by the flesh.

As long as an individual under the law did not commit a sin that was unforgiveable that required they die, and availed themselves of the forgiveness that was available through the Levitical priesthood and sacrifice when they failed in other things, a person had the righteousness that is by the law. But, surely, they also had the righteousness that is credited to a person by faith in God's promise to Abraham. But the text seems to be specifically addressing the righteousness they had by law.

Don't pretend to be able to get technical about the law. You have no understanding of such things. You are turning yourself into a pretzel with the sole purpose of thinking you are forgiven for ongoing sins. Stick with your real agenda.

AS for the law of Moses....it is a national justification....not an individual one. Being in Israel was enough to be covered by the blood of the yearly sacrifice of Yon KIppour.

Being in Christ now does the same thing from the point of view of belonging to Christ...to be judged PERSONALLY in the coming judgment.

Not all who were in Israel were OF Israel. Not all who are in the church are really following Christ.

Only a REMNANT of each fulfill the law (by human means or heavenly means) to God's satisfaction....each according to their respective standards whether for mercy or for glory.

 

[Episkopos]

The problem with your gospel is you make justification contingent on actually being righteous in behavior

Well DAH...a righteous man does righteousness. If he sins he repents towards God and acknowledges his failure like the Publican did.

- what you call 'holiness'.

NO, holiness is a different standard. It is God who judges holiness, not men. But righteousness is contingent on US returning and obeying.

You see, God and men do differently.

If justification is determined solely on your holy behavior you will never have the declaration of right standing with God that you need to get into the kingdom of God, because you are not always holy in behavior.

Holiness is not by human effort....it is by being translated into a holy place that is fully governed by God. Sin from there and you are back to walking like any man....in his own power...away from the direct presence of God.

Of course there is nowhere a man can go to escape God's general presence He sees all things. But here we are talking about walking in God;s actual presence...a presence that empowers us to walk as Jesus walked

Born again people know this. That's why they are born again. They came to the end of themselves knowing they can't always live up to the righteous standard of behavior required by God for him to declare them righteous. And so, like the tax collector in Luke 18:13, they have cast themselves on God's mercy, openly confessing their unrighteousness, and God in his mercy has forgiven them and given them a declaration of right standing with him as a free gift of his grace.

NO...the Publican was never declared to be holy. He was not a saint. The Publican did not enter into the kingdom of God. Neither did the thief on the cross or even Abraham for that matter.

You can't be born again until you honestly realize you can't get from here to there on the merit of your righteous behavior because you're not always righteous in behavior. The guilt of your unrighteous behavior doesn't go away just because you determine not to continue in that unrighteousness. It's always there on your record as a matter of historical fact.

God decides who he has mercy on...now for elevation into holiness, or else as being deemed righteous on the human standard which is by mercy.

Surviving God's judgment and entering into glory are very different standards. Being the Bride and being a guest are also very different. Because you have never entered into the kingdom you don't know the difference.

God is just. The just and lawful penalty for sin must be administered.

God is BOTH just and holy. Only in holiness must justice be administered. You are destroying mercy. God is also merciful....forgiving for nothing. Read the parable of the man who owed 1,000 talents. And God forgives us AS WE forgive others. What we do God does too. Have you read the Lord's prayer yet? So Jesus forgave people BEFORE His death and resurrection. The coming of Jesus was not to abolish human righteousness...it was to BUILD on it. He who is faithful in little is also faithful in much. He who is elevated into the holy walk in Christ must also learn human righteousness to support or buttress God's righteousness...we have to be in agreement in our works and thoughts.

So this is a BIG problem you have with trying to make God jump through your legalistic mind.

Jesus died because of a lack of holiness...due to the separation or distance incurred through sin. Men are incapable of bridging that gap because of weakness and a lack of faith. Enoch is an exception of course.

Born again people know this and believe God's word that Jesus absorbed that penalty into himself in their place on the cross and that he will forgive the guilt of their unrighteousness and make them legally righteous in his sight as a free gift of his grace if they'll believe and trust in that grace. And that he also gives the Holy Spirit to transform them and give them power over the sin that condemned them. And as children of God, they learn to use that power as they grow and mature in knowledge.

You can only get from here to there by the mercy of God's forgiveness which wipes away the unrighteousness that keeps you distant from him and unable to enter the kingdom. Your record of unrighteousness will always stand in the way until it is forgiven by God. You receive that forgiveness by having faith in his word that he will forgive you through the forgiveness he has made available through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Sin is atoned for through blood, because the just penalty for the sin of mankind is death. You can either pay that penalty yourself and die for your own sins or accept God's free offer to let Jesus' death on the cross be the just payment for your sins. Born again people have chosen the latter.

Born again are by God's choice not that of men. So your decision does not make you born again. I think you are following the modern American version of what born again means...not a biblical one.

So you are fully outside the biblical framework for being in Christ.

We have nothing more to say to each other....but this...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Are you just going to ignore the scriptures I posted which clearly say there is none righteous, no not one? I pointed out another contradiction with respect to being "perfect" as well, and resolved it too..... and you are ignoring that as well. It's not convoluted....just take your time with it.

I have heard the debate already. You obssessively-compulsively want to have the same argument over and over again with episkopos and/or anyone who listens to him. It’s like a child with her blankie or a child insisting on watching only one movie over and over until everyone could tear their ears off.

You didn‘t resolve anything and the reason you cant is because you try to fit God to your tastes and desires and that is never going to work.

Your desire will be to control Him but He will rule over you.

 

[MostlyConfused]

And when the righteous man doesn't do right, then what?

And then His mercies begin anew each morning and you can stumble and get back up. He knows our frame and He knows our struggle. When you read something in His words and you see it is impossible and you wonder why He commands what is impossible, you are reading of the holiness standard, not the righteous standard that you are able to learn and are capable of doing. after you have struggled with sin for a while He will establish, strengthen and confirm you.

You can learn and do basic righteousness, which is to do with your behavior toward others. Righteousness is a heart that seeks to never do any harm to another person.

 

[MostlyConfused]

There is the righteousness of law, and there is the righteousness that is by faith.

This is exactly what Episkopos teaches. Exactly.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Leaving out faith in the forgiveness of God is not rightly dividing the word of God.

He doesn’t leave out faith. Do you expect a person to cover everything in every single post? He teaches that we go from faith to faith. From our faith to the same faith Christ had when He was on earth. This is the two levels.

 

[Episkopos]

This is exactly what Episkopos teaches. Exactly.

But his version of law and faith lead to the same thing...assuming and presuming like many of his fine feathered friends here. It is ALL FLESH.

Doing righteousness is following God's laws, whether we know we are doing it or not. As Paul says...

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


But most here think that human faith (which is by a human righteousness) is the same as the faith OF Christ. (which is by the righteousness of God, that empowers us to fulfill the law perfectly)

This is a HUGE miscalculation...although a human faith is still good...as long as it doesn't boast itself against a greater provision of faith that is in holiness.

 

[Episkopos]

He doesn’t leave out faith. Do you expect a person to cover everything in every single post? He teaches that we go from faith to faith. From our faith to the same faith Christ had when He was on earth. This is the two levels.

He will never understand because he was religiously converted not spiritually so. So he remains carnal in every degree...fully outside of anything in the bible.

 

[Laurina]

For those that keep quoting from the new testament, "it is written there is none righteous, no not one."

This is where it is written:

Eccl.7:20 "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."

What makes the just/righteous man righteous is that he acknowledges (takes responsibility for) his unrighteousness (sin) and rectifies it (repents).

 

[MostlyConfused]

There is the righteousness of law, and there is the righteousness that is by faith.

Yes, there is a righteousness men are capable of (don’t steal from your neighbor, do not tell lies about others, honor your parents, don’t lay with another persons spouse, etc.) You are learning righteousness and God sees a heart that seeks to do no harm to another human being as acceptable. But if you want to be perfect, that is what you must give up your life and everything you have for. The first is the meek will inherit the earth and inherit eternal life. The second is many are called but few are chosen because it’s a very narrow way and difficult way to give up everything and all your rights to self and few find that way.
Godshows mercy to the righteous/meek. He is much more merciful than what men teach as doctrine.

 

[MostlyConfused]

He will never understand because he was religiously converted not spiritually so. So he remains carnal in every degree...fully outside of anything in the bible.

You don’t know for sure what God might do for him, what God might let him see. Since we don’t know for sure and we know how merciful Heis and know that all things are possible with him, to say he will never understand is somethingyou don’t know for sure.
Satan seeks to wear us down. Remember how you arrived here in this ministry. Remember the horror of that dream you once saw and another time heard. Never say never like that but do your work and leave the outcome to God.

 

[Episkopos]

You don’t know for sure what God might do for him, what God might let him see. Since we don’t know for sure and we know how merciful Heis and know that all things are possible with him, to say he will never understand is somethingyou don’t know for sure.
Satan seeks to wear us down. Remember how you arrived here in this ministry. Remember the horror of that dream you once saw and another time heard. Never say never like that but do your work and leave the outcome to God.

What I mean is that we will never get him to see beyond what he can see. He needs for God to show Him.

 

[MostlyConfused]

What I mean is that we will never get him to see beyond what he can see. He needs for God to show Him.

I was just thinking that I have been so selfish to thank God that He didnt let you remain so that I could be helped. And I thought that my prayer needs to be that He take you again so you can speak what you’ve been given in power. But then my selfishness comes in again because if He were to take you again, men wouldnt just yell and rant at you but would literally seek to kill you.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I’m trying to get through the posts since I was last here yesterday. It’s ongoing, so it’s an uphill battle!

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Yes, there is a righteousness men are capable of (don’t steal from your neighbor, do not tell lies about others, honor your parents, don’t lay with another persons spouse, etc.) You are learning righteousness and God sees a heart that seeks to do no harm to another human being as acceptable. But if you want to be perfect, that is what you must give up your life and everything you have for.

This is still the gospel of justification by the merit of your works. You just added more work to the standard that must be achieved to be justified by that work. And, as I said, it does nothing about the guilt of your past sins and the justice God demands for that sin.

 

[JustMe]

If this simple explanation of God's ways confuses you, wait till you hear how babies are born!

Arrogant and prideful to the end....you have nothing to say on the matter, as you have been found out, way before my time

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

He doesn’t leave out faith. Do you expect a person to cover everything in every single post? He teaches that we go from faith to faith. From our faith to the same faith Christ had when He was on earth. This is the two levels.

There is faith in God's forgiveness. And there is faith for daily living. He leaves out faith in God's forgiveness for justification. He calls that 'self-justification'. He can clarify his argument if he wants to.