Davy
Well-Known Member
Mid-trib then.
IF... you believe Lord Jesus comes to gather His Church PRIOR to the "great tribulation", then THAT is a pre-trib rapture doctrine.
Does The Resurrection Take Place On The Last Day, With All Dead In The Grave Coming Forth?
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Mid-trib then.
IF... you believe Lord Jesus comes to gather His Church PRIOR to the "great tribulation", then THAT is a pre-trib rapture doctrine.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Let's say you aren't pre-trib then. And instead that you believe the so-called 'rapture' happens just prior to the "day of the Lord" (which I believe you may have pointed to somewhere in your posts that I read.)
IF... you believe Christ raptures His Church off the earth to Heaven, and that is where He and His Church will reign from... AND...
IF... you believe Christ's place of reign is always off this earth and instead in Heaven... AND...
IF... you believe Christ has already established His Kingdom on earth today and is ruling from Heaven... AND...
IF... you believe our future home is in Heaven off this earth... AND...
IF... you believe Christ has already inherited the throne of David and that He is now reigning upon it 'in heaven'...
... Then you carry many doctrines of the false Pre-trib Rapture school.
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Not One Mention Of "Fire" At The Lord's Return, Talk About "Bias", Read It Again!
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation
This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ
(Behold, I Make All Things New)
2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
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....that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
Where are these "nations" located?
You do know I gave you one example where the 1,000 is literal in Gen 20:16?
We know how long a thousand years is...we can do the math.....but, tell all of us just how long the 1,000 years in Rev 20 really is.
Are we currently in this 1,000 years? If so, how far?
A/the thousand years of Rev 20 is referring to an unknown amount of time that began with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man and will be finished when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound that time given this earth wherein man might be saved shall be no longer.
Re 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
I believe we may be very close to that time, but I cannot say with certainty that Satan's little season has already come. I believe this time will usher in a period of great darkness as never before as churches throughout the world will be spiritually silenced and not be legally permitted to proclaim the name of Christ and His Kingdom.
This too is how we know without doubting that we are now living in this time symbolized a/the thousand years, and have been since Christ came saying, "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Mt 24:14) The gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ has been preached unto all nations, and whosoever hears and believes have entered the Kingdom that shall never be destroyed.
This makes no sense if Satan is not already bound through the cross and resurrection of Christ. If Satan is only prevented from deceiving the nations when he is bound, how can the church preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ be removing the deception from Satan before his binding? If Christ has not already bound Satan all nations would still be deceived by him.
Once the Kingdom of God through Christ has been preached in all the world "then shall the end come". NOT another one thousand years, but the end of TIME (a/the symbolic thousand years).
Because it symbolizes TIME when the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ is building the Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ. After which time Christ will come again. No man knows when this time shall be finished because it is not physical time but symbolizes time given mankind wherein, we might be saved. Christ tells us only to be prepared for the end without giving any indication of how long it will be. Only that His coming will be quickly (unexpectedly), without notice to all who are not looking for Him to come again.
Revelation 22:20 (KJV) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
I believe all that is written in the Revelation depicts all that has come, shall come and will come to pass upon this earth as the battle between the forces of good and evil rages on. This great spiritual battle began with earnest, according to Rev 12 when Christ was born. The book of Revelation is divided between time given the church as she remains faithful, and time given Satan and his minions, as the church becomes more and more polluted by evil and is overcome by darkness and death. It is a mistake to try to force literalism into this highly apocalyptic book that uses symbolic language and depictions.
How do you know this isn't this:
Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
Where does the bible say satan is bound at the cross and resurrection?
Why would Peter say in 1st Peter 5:8......Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Why must the 1,000 years be symbolic rather than literal?
This too relates to a/the symbolically written thousand years that began with the first advent of Christ. Verse 6 is after vss 1-7 spiritually depicting Old Covenant faithful saints after the Lamb of God (Christ) was slain for sin and resurrected to heaven. They are called "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Why? Because they remained faithful unto death.
Re 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Re 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Re 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Re 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Re 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
After the 144,000 Old Covenant children of all the tribes of Israel, (Rev 7) were sealed by the Holy Spirit sent from Christ, they ascended with Christ to heaven after He resurrected from the dead.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Once the Old Covenant faithful saints have ascended to heaven a spiritual body as living souls even after death, the time for proclaiming the everlasting Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ had come to every nation, kindred, tongue and people of the earth. Before time for proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all nations of the earth, Israel only had heard of the Gospel of the coming Messiah to redeem His people. Babylon fallen in this passage depicts the Covenant people of Old. This is not depicting the nation of Israel fallen, but the Holy City and Temple had fallen through spiritual apostasy and adultery. They were representative of the Congregation/Church of Old, they were appointed to be spiritual leaders but instead gave themselves over to serve evil under the influence of their father the Devil. Once Satan was bound through the death and resurrection of Christ, the New Covenant through Christ came to all the world with the Gospel. Babylon symbolizes the generation of evil, not an ethnic people, but an apostate people that would continue to grow causing all nations to drink of the same wine of fornication that she was guilty of.
Re 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Re 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Re 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
If Satan has not been bound by the cross and resurrection of Christ, how are people of the nation's coming into the Kingdom of God as the Gospel is being sent out unto all nations? Remember he was bound that the nations would no longer be deceived.
Satan is spirit. As spirit he is still able to deceive unbelievers. That's the whole purpose for his binding, though he continues to hold spiritual power over the unbelievers of the world, he is no longer able to hold all who are born again of the Spirit of Christ in bondage to fear of death. Why? Because Christ defeated death, and all who have been born again have already entered into the Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit sent from Christ within us.
Before we have been born again "the prince of the air, the spirit that now works in children of disobedience", Christians too were dead in trespasses and sins. We weren't physically dead, but being dead in trespasses and sins meant before salvation we had no ability to believe on Christ for everlasting life. That's why Christ tells us, "Ye must be born again!"
Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Because it represents time that began with the first advent of Christ and will end when the last trumpet begins to sound. IOW a/the thousand years symbolizes TIME for when the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ is being preached unto all the nations of the world. And then shall the END come! If it were one thousand years of time it could be possible for some to know when Christ with the immortal Kingdom of God would come again, reckoning time from when the one thousand years began and counting 999 years later. The Bible tells us no man can know this.
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