Outer Darkness: a possible destiny for the saved

[Marvelloustime]

That is why i heed no politician nor have any hope in man .
However the sad thing is ,
EPI while you do know some truth , YOU DENY THE VERY TRUTH .
GODS MERCY would never silence the voices of those who DO preach the dire need to BELIEVE ON JESUS
nor call them relgious extremists .
You cannot see the lie in inclusivism . And thus you cannot help them epi . at most
you can only see some errors . AND OH YEAH its on BOTH SIDES all right .
Just like its all over the RCC and a ton of prostestant ville itself .
I have never once been able to get you to even say ONE MUST FIRST bELIEVE ON JESUS .
I think you actually beleive
that if , for example , you just told an athiest , or buddist or whoever ist
a teaching of JESUS then you are brin ing them the GOSPEL . BUT THAT IS NOT TRUE Epi .
And while you are SPOT on right about the fact
that lip service is dead and that these who cliam to BELIVE ON JESUS DARN SURE NEED to start
BELEIVING HIS WORDS and Actually FOLLOWIG HIM .
EPI you are just as blind as they are . Because you OMIT the fact ONE must first believe .
ITS NOT ONE or the other . ITS BOTH EPI . THEY preach only one side and omit The need to FOLLOW HIM
and YOU OMIT the fact one must f irst beleive and then try and go about teaching folks on how to follow him .
ITS B OTH EPI . if one does not BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST , then all is in vain
AND if those who do cliam to BELIEVE ON HIM , but obviously DO NOT KEEP his teachings , ALL OF IT IS ALSO IN VAIN .

@amigo de christo

 

[Titus]

John 10:14-16,
- I am the good Sheperd and know My sheep and am known of mine
- as the Father knoweth Me even so know I the Father and I lay down My life for the sheep
- and other sheep I have which are not of this fold them must I also bring and they shall hear My voice and there shall be one fold and one Sheperd

That is partially correct.

No not partially as I already taught those that in the future will come to Christ are also referred to as sheep.

Yes indeed, there are lost sheep, whom the Shepherd will save; in fact, all those to whom God gives the gifts of repentance and faith were once lost sheep, but are now saved sheep.

You being a calvinist mean that Gods gift of repentance and faith is only to those whom are elected before the world was created.
The non-elect will not be given the ability to repent or to believe.
So in your false theology only certain cherry picked chosen individuals will be given the gift of repentance and the ability to have faith. NO FREE WILL.
Those whom God withholds repentance and faith from, God will burn in hell.

The expression "fake sheep" is my own; however, I meant the same thing as "wolves in sheep's clothing"

Good, I'm glad you admit the lost Lords sheep in Luke 15:4-7 is the Lords. Therefore they are already His sheep. And as Jesus taught His sheep do go astray and must repent to be saved.
Except in your false doctrine only God gives some not all the ability to repent.

This is why in calvinist reformed churches, when a pastor is caught in a affair that has been taking place for 20 years. The members then claim the pastor must have never been a sheep but a wolf in sheeps clothing.
No repentance for someone who God did not allow to be saved. This is the doctrine of limited atonement. The L in TULIP.
God limits who can be saved. The rest God created for eternal hell.

In the true gospel teaching of Jesus Christ.
Born again christians can fall away commit horrible sins but God will forgive them, if they choose to repent of their sin, 1John 1:8-9.

The sheep belong to the Sheperd.

Notice verse 6,
- I have found My sheep which was lost

Jesus does not describe the lost sheep as a wolf pretending to be a sheep or a goat.

My sheep identifies the sheep as belonging to the Sheperd.

T

Amigo de christo, you warned me of not being decieved by false teachers.
Well, now I'm warning you!!!

David1701, teaches God only allows a limited group of people to be saved.
Limited atonement is what he believes.
David1701 does not believe Jesus died for everyone.
Amigo, you like John 3:16, so do I.
I believe what it says,

- for God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

David1701 only believes in some of the world Jesus died for not all.
The rest whom God has predestined to be lost has not been given the gift of repentance nor the gift of faith
Amigo, this is what he means by God giving the gift of repentance and faith.

Yes indeed, there are lost sheep, whom the Shepherd will save; in fact, all those to whom God gives the gifts of repentance and faith were once lost sheep, but are now saved sheep.

What he does not believe is that the lost sheep that get saved can ever commit any sin that could cause them to be lost again.
That means murder, rape of children etc. Will not send them to hell.
Does that sound like the gospel Jesus and His apostles preached?

Yes, it is true there are lost sheep.
But sheep can be lost before they hear the gospel and believe and after they have believed and obeyed the gospel.

2Peter 2:20-21,
- for it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than AFTER they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them

 

[Titus]

Two doctrines are being debated here.
The doctrine of Jesus Christ, that teaches saved sheep can fall away and be lost unless they choose to repent of their sins.
In Jesus' new testament gospel everyone is welcomed to be saved if they so choose.

The calvinist doctrine that teaches the saved cannot so sin as to cause them to be lost. Once saved always saved.
But also only a limited few will be chosen by God to be saved.
The rest God created only for destruction. These folks have no say in their eternal destruction in hell fire. God did not create them to be saved only for damnation.

 

[Titus]

Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ; and it results in good works.

Anyone who trusts in anyone or anything other than Jesus Christ is an idolater, who will end up in  hell, if he does not repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

This is truth.
Unfortunately David1701, your doctrine contradicts the very thing you believe.

Listen to Sam Morris a believer in OSAS theology,

Sam Morris, pastor of First Baptist Church in Stanford Texas wrote a tract titled:
" Do a Christian's Sins Damn His Soul? "

Morris: " We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn His soul.
The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatsoever to do with the salvation of his soul. That is settled in Christ and Christ alone."

Morris argues that even serious sins(I thought all sin were serious), including idolatry and murder, do not place a Christian's soul in danger of damnation
He argues that religious activity and good deeds do not make a Christian's soul more secure.

 

[David1701]

No not partially as I already taught those that in the future will come to Christ are also referred to as sheep.


You being a calvinist mean that Gods gift of repentance and faith is only to those whom are elected before the world was created.
The non-elect will not be given the ability to repent or to believe.
So in your false theology only certain cherry picked chosen individuals will be given the gift of repentance and the ability to have faith. NO FREE WILL.
Those whom God withholds repentance and faith from, God will burn in hell.

I am not a follower of Calvin. If you had asked, instead of assuming, I would have told you.

That repentance and faith in Jesus Christ are gifts from God (N. B. not some mere ability to repent and believe, but repentance and belief themselves), is nothing to do with Calvin; it is stated clearly, in God's word.

2 Tim. 2:24-26 (E.M.T.V.)
24 And a servant of the Lord ought not to fight, but to be gentle to all, skillful at teaching, forbearing,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose, if God perhaps may give them repentance, to a full knowledge of the truth,
26 and they regain their senses and escape out of the snare of the devil, having been captured alive by him to do his will.

Phil. 1:29 (A.V.) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Good, I'm glad you admit the lost Lords sheep in Luke 15:4-7 is the Lords. Therefore they are already His sheep. And as Jesus taught His sheep do go astray and must repent to be saved.
Except in your false doctrine only God gives some not all the ability to repent.

As I have proved, God gives repentance to whom he will (not a fictional mere ability to repent, but repentance), just as he gives faith to whom he will.

This is why in calvinist reformed churches, when a pastor is caught in a affair that has been taking place for 20 years. The members then claim the pastor must have never been a sheep but a wolf in sheeps clothing.

In such a scenario, it's very likely that the long-term adulterous pastor was a wolf in sheep's clothing!

1 John 3:8,9 (E.S.V.)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No-one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

No repentance for someone who God did not allow to be saved. This is the doctrine of limited atonement. The L in TULIP.
God limits who can be saved. The rest God created for eternal hell.

The atonement is either limited in scope or limited in efficacy.

It is either effectual for all for whom it was intended (i.e. limited in scope), which is biblical; or, it is ineffectual by itself and requires man's will or works to make it effectual (i.e. limited in efficacy), which is heretical.

In the true gospel teaching of Jesus Christ.
Born again christians can fall away commit horrible sins but God will forgive them, if they choose to repent of their sin, 1John 1:8-9.

As I've shown, repentance is a gift from God. The Bible never says that it is a result of fallen man's will.

Amigo de christo, you warned me of not being decieved by false teachers.
Well, now I'm warning you!!!

Do you believe in Jesus Christ, or in your own will? The answer to this will be very clear, if you just answer the following multiple choice question:

Two people hear the same gospel message, at the same time. One of them repents and believes in Jesus Christ; the other rejects the gospel. What makes them to differ from each other? Is it...

A) Their own free will/choice, generating their own repentance and faith, or rejecting the gospel?

or

B) The free grace of God effectually giving repentance and faith to the one who gets saved?

One of the above is a form of Pelagianism (an ancient heresy); the other is biblical.

David1701, teaches God only allows a limited group of people to be saved.
Limited atonement is what he believes.
David1701 does not believe Jesus died for everyone.
Amigo, you like John 3:16, so do I.
I believe what it says,

John 3:16 says precisely nothing about how many people Jesus died for. What it does say is that this is the way in which God loved the world: everyone who believes in Jesus Christ will not perish but will have eternal life.

- for God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

Which says, as I've pointed out, nothing about how many people Jesus died for.

David1701 only believes in some of the world Jesus died for not all.
The rest whom God has predestined to be lost has not been given the gift of repentance nor the gift of faith
Amigo, this is what he means by God giving the gift of repentance and faith.

Jesus himself said that he laid down his life for his sheep (i.e. not the goats) and for his bride (again, not everyone).

Predestination is only mentioned a few times, in the N.T., and it's always positive (i.e. predestination to salvation).

What he does not believe is that the lost sheep that get saved can ever commit any sin that could cause them to be lost again.
That means murder, rape of children etc. Will not send them to hell.
Does that sound like the gospel Jesus and His apostles preached?

1 John 3:8,9 (E.S.V.)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No-one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Yes, it is true there are lost sheep.
But sheep can be lost before they hear the gospel and believe and after they have believed and obeyed the gospel.

After sheep have been saved, they will never perish, as Jesus said. What do think gives you the right to contradict our Lord?!

John 10:27,28 (E.S.V.)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 5:24 (E.S.V.) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life.

2Peter 2:20-21,
- for it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than AFTER they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them

False teachers may know the way of righteousness; but, they don't know Jesus; and they don't show the evidences of salvation (e.g. bearing good fruit).

 

[David1701]

This is truth.
Unfortunately David1701, your doctrine contradicts the very thing you believe.

Listen to Sam Morris a believer in OSAS theology,

I don't believe OSAS, which is usually something believed by will worshippers, who think that they are saved because of a decision they made.

I believe in POTS (Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints) - God preserves his people, so they persevere in the faith and bear good fruit.

 

[Titus]

I don't believe OSAS, which is usually something believed by will worshippers, who think that they are saved because of a decision they made.

I believe in POTS (Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints) - God preserves his people, so they persevere in the faith and bear good fruit.

They both originate from reformed theology.
You are believing in calvanist theology if you believe in either one.
As you stated one position is the believer does the believing.
Which is true.
Your position that God does the believing for you is false.

 

[David1701]

They both originate from reformed theology.
You are believing in calvanist theology if you believe in either one.
As you stated one position is the believer does the believing.
Which is true.
Your position that God does the believing for you is false.

Don't tell me what my position is, especially when you have it wrong.

In both positions the believer does the believing; but, in one, the belief is generated by the sinner's will (contrary to his fallen, hostile-to-God, light-hating nature); and, in the other, God gives the faith (and only the latter one is biblical).

God does not believe for me; rather, he gave me faith, because of which I believe in him. This is like a surgeon giving a man a new heart; the surgeon does not pump the man's blood round his body, but the new heart, which now belongs to the patient, does the pumping.

Ez. 36:26,27 (W.E.B.)
26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.

Rom. 9:15,16
15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.

 

[Titus]

I am not a follower of Calvin. If you had asked, instead of assuming, I would have told you.

That repentance and faith in Jesus Christ are gifts from God (N. B. not some mere ability to repent and believe, but repentance and belief themselves), is nothing to do with Calvin; it is stated clearly, in God's word

I didn't need to ask.
Your teaching aligns exactly with reformed churches.
If I walked into a reformed church their answers to these questions would mirror every answer you gave.

That repentance and faith in Jesus Christ are gifts from God (N. B. not some mere ability to repent and believe, but repentance and belief themselves), is nothing to do with Calvin; it is stated clearly, in God's word

I agree they are gifts from God.
The difference between us is, you believe God withholds these gifts from some because He doesn't love them.
The few whom He does love, He miraculously gives them repentance and faith.

That repentance and faith in Jesus Christ are gifts from God (N. B. not some mere ability to repent and believe, but repentance and belief themselves), is nothing to do with Calvin; it is stated clearly, in God's word.
2 Tim. 2:24-26 (E.M.T.V.)
24 And a servant of the Lord ought not to fight, but to be gentle to all, skillful at teaching, forbearing,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose, if God perhaps may give them repentance, to a full knowledge of the truth,
26 and they regain their senses and escape out of the snare of the devil, having been captured alive by him to do his will.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 Decalvinized,
- if God perhaps may give them repentance...
Calvinists interpret the verse to mean that God must irresistably(TULIP, I irresistable grace), regenerate an individual before that person can repent and believe the truth.
Therefore the born depraved sinner is saved/regenerated before he even believes and repents.
This eliminates the gospel as the power that saves. Instead it is a miraculous direct operation of the Holy Spirit on the individual that saves them. Because they are already saved they then are able to believe and repent.

However the passage does not say that God grants repentance exclusively to the elect nor does it say that repentance is irresistible.
Nothing in David1701 interpretation of this passage is Biblical.

How then does God grant repentance and belief?
Though the word, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:17,
- so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

David1701 teaches faith is not by mans own will of hearing the gospel and then choosing to believe it.
He teaches man is so totally depraved that he cannot choose to give His life to Jesus by only hearing the gospel. Not what the scripture teaches.

Repentance is granted by God the same way faith is.
Through the gospel.
Acts 2:37-38,
- now when they  heard this(the gospel) they were pricked in the heart and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren what shall we do,
- then Peter said unto them,  repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Repentant heart comes from hearing the gospel NOT BEFORE hearing the gospel as David1701 doctrine teaches.
Notice how repentance is connected with hearing the gospel and believing it.

2Timothy 2:24-25,
- in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance leading toward acknowledgment of the truth(gospel)

God gives repentance to those who acknowledge the truth of the gospel.

As I have proved, God gives repentance to whom he will (not a fictional mere ability to repent, but repentance), just as he gives faith to whom he will

God gives the ability to everyone who believes the truth to repent.
What is fictional is you teaching man cannot believe by his own free will.
2Timothy 2:25-26,
- in meekness instructing those who oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth,
- and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will
Acts 2:40,
- and with many other words did he testify and exhort saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation


The atonement is either limited in scope or limited in efficacy.

It is either effectual for all for whom it was intended (i.e. limited in scope), which is biblical; or, it is ineffectual by itself and requires man's will or works to make it effectual (i.e. limited in efficacy), which is heretical.

Mans will can be Gods will or Man can use his will to be a slave to satan.
Nothing heretical about free will to be saved.
You calling mans free will ability to choose God heretical teaching is what is in reality heretical teaching.

2Peter 1:10,
- wherefore rather brethren give diligence to make your calling and election sure FOR IF YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL

They have the ability to keep themselves saved. God does not U unconditionally elect some without man playing no part.
Man himself must do things so that he may never fall.

Acts 16:30,
- and brought them out and said, Sirs what must I do to be saved

Paul did not believe in David1701 doctrine.
If he did he would not of told him that he could do something to be saved.
David1701 would have told the Jailer that it was heretical to think man does something to be saved.

But Paul did not correct the Jailer's desire from his own heart.
Instead Paul told him what he could do to be saved,
Acts 16:30-31,
- and they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house

Do you believe in Jesus Christ, or in your own will? The answer to this will be very clear, if you just answer the following multiple choice question:
Two people hear the same gospel message, at the same time. One of them repents and believes in Jesus Christ; the other rejects the gospel. What makes them to differ from each other? Is it...

A) Their own free will/choice, generating their own repentance and faith, or rejecting the gospel?

or

B) The free grace of God effectually giving repentance and faith to the one who gets saved?

One of the above is a form of Pelagianism (an ancient heresy); the other is biblical

Your calvinist doctrine is heresy.
You created a false dichotomy.
You claim one or the other Jesus or mans free will.

Jesus gave man free will to choose.
Both, I believe Jesus saves and God gave man the ability to choose.

Revelation 22:17,
- and the Spirit and the bride say come and let him that heareth

say come and let him that that is thirsty come, and whosoever will let him take the water of life freely

Whosoever will. That's mans free will to come to God.

 

[Titus]

Don't tell me what my position is, especially when you have it wrong.

God does not believe for me; rather, he gave me faith,

You did not believe on your own.
God had to miraculously give you belief.

I am correct.
Your doctrine contradicts itself.

 

[Titus]

God does not believe for me;

You already taught man cannot believe,

As I have proved, God gives repentance to whom he will (not a fictional mere ability to repent, but repentance), just as he gives faith to whom he will

You are starting to do as all Calvinists do.
Speak out of both sides of your mouth aka double talk.

You already taught it is a fictitious ability to repent or believe

You called this Pelagianism.