Outer Darkness: a possible destiny for the saved
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No not partially as I already taught those that in the future will come to Christ are also referred to as sheep.
You being a calvinist mean that Gods gift of repentance and faith is only to those whom are elected before the world was created.
The non-elect will not be given the ability to repent or to believe.
So in your false theology only certain cherry picked chosen individuals will be given the gift of repentance and the ability to have faith. NO FREE WILL.
Those whom God withholds repentance and faith from, God will burn in hell.
Good, I'm glad you admit the lost Lords sheep in Luke 15:4-7 is the Lords. Therefore they are already His sheep. And as Jesus taught His sheep do go astray and must repent to be saved.
Except in your false doctrine only God gives some not all the ability to repent.
This is why in calvinist reformed churches, when a pastor is caught in a affair that has been taking place for 20 years. The members then claim the pastor must have never been a sheep but a wolf in sheeps clothing.
No repentance for someone who God did not allow to be saved. This is the doctrine of limited atonement. The L in TULIP.
God limits who can be saved. The rest God created for eternal hell.
In the true gospel teaching of Jesus Christ.
Born again christians can fall away commit horrible sins but God will forgive them, if they choose to repent of their sin, 1John 1:8-9.
Amigo de christo, you warned me of not being decieved by false teachers.
Well, now I'm warning you!!!
David1701, teaches God only allows a limited group of people to be saved.
Limited atonement is what he believes.
David1701 does not believe Jesus died for everyone.
Amigo, you like John 3:16, so do I.
I believe what it says,
- for God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
David1701 only believes in some of the world Jesus died for not all.
The rest whom God has predestined to be lost has not been given the gift of repentance nor the gift of faith
Amigo, this is what he means by God giving the gift of repentance and faith.
What he does not believe is that the lost sheep that get saved can ever commit any sin that could cause them to be lost again.
That means murder, rape of children etc. Will not send them to hell.
Does that sound like the gospel Jesus and His apostles preached?
Yes, it is true there are lost sheep.
But sheep can be lost before they hear the gospel and believe and after they have believed and obeyed the gospel.
2Peter 2:20-21,
- for it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than AFTER they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them
Two doctrines are being debated here.
The doctrine of Jesus Christ, that teaches saved sheep can fall away and be lost unless they choose to repent of their sins.
In Jesus' new testament gospel everyone is welcomed to be saved if they so choose.
The calvinist doctrine that teaches the saved cannot so sin as to cause them to be lost. Once saved always saved.
But also only a limited few will be chosen by God to be saved.
The rest God created only for destruction. These folks have no say in their eternal destruction in hell fire. God did not create them to be saved only for damnation.
The doctrine of Jesus Christ, that teaches saved sheep can fall away and be lost unless they choose to repent of their sins.
In Jesus' new testament gospel everyone is welcomed to be saved if they so choose.
The calvinist doctrine that teaches the saved cannot so sin as to cause them to be lost. Once saved always saved.
But also only a limited few will be chosen by God to be saved.
The rest God created only for destruction. These folks have no say in their eternal destruction in hell fire. God did not create them to be saved only for damnation.
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This is truth.
Unfortunately David1701, your doctrine contradicts the very thing you believe.
Listen to Sam Morris a believer in OSAS theology,
I am not a follower of Calvin. If you had asked, instead of assuming, I would have told you.
That repentance and faith in Jesus Christ are gifts from God (N. B. not some mere ability to repent and believe, but repentance and belief themselves), is nothing to do with Calvin; it is stated clearly, in God's word.
2 Tim. 2:24-26 (E.M.T.V.)
24 And a servant of the Lord ought not to fight, but to be gentle to all, skillful at teaching, forbearing,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose, if God perhaps may give them repentance, to a full knowledge of the truth,
26 and they regain their senses and escape out of the snare of the devil, having been captured alive by him to do his will.
Phil. 1:29 (A.V.) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
As I have proved, God gives repentance to whom he will (not a fictional mere ability to repent, but repentance), just as he gives faith to whom he will.
In such a scenario, it's very likely that the long-term adulterous pastor was a wolf in sheep's clothing!
1 John 3:8,9 (E.S.V.)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No-one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
The atonement is either limited in scope or limited in efficacy.
It is either effectual for all for whom it was intended (i.e. limited in scope), which is biblical; or, it is ineffectual by itself and requires man's will or works to make it effectual (i.e. limited in efficacy), which is heretical.
As I've shown, repentance is a gift from God. The Bible never says that it is a result of fallen man's will.
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, or in your own will? The answer to this will be very clear, if you just answer the following multiple choice question:
Two people hear the same gospel message, at the same time. One of them repents and believes in Jesus Christ; the other rejects the gospel. What makes them to differ from each other? Is it...
A) Their own free will/choice, generating their own repentance and faith, or rejecting the gospel?
or
B) The free grace of God effectually giving repentance and faith to the one who gets saved?
One of the above is a form of Pelagianism (an ancient heresy); the other is biblical.
John 3:16 says precisely nothing about how many people Jesus died for. What it does say is that this is the way in which God loved the world: everyone who believes in Jesus Christ will not perish but will have eternal life.
Which says, as I've pointed out, nothing about how many people Jesus died for.
Jesus himself said that he laid down his life for his sheep (i.e. not the goats) and for his bride (again, not everyone).
Predestination is only mentioned a few times, in the N.T., and it's always positive (i.e. predestination to salvation).
1 John 3:8,9 (E.S.V.)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No-one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
After sheep have been saved, they will never perish, as Jesus said. What do think gives you the right to contradict our Lord?!
John 10:27,28 (E.S.V.)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 5:24 (E.S.V.) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life.
False teachers may know the way of righteousness; but, they don't know Jesus; and they don't show the evidences of salvation (e.g. bearing good fruit).
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I don't believe OSAS, which is usually something believed by will worshippers, who think that they are saved because of a decision they made.
I believe in POTS (Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints) - God preserves his people, so they persevere in the faith and bear good fruit.
They both originate from reformed theology.
You are believing in calvanist theology if you believe in either one.
As you stated one position is the believer does the believing.
Which is true.
Your position that God does the believing for you is false.
Don't tell me what my position is, especially when you have it wrong.
In both positions the believer does the believing; but, in one, the belief is generated by the sinner's will (contrary to his fallen, hostile-to-God, light-hating nature); and, in the other, God gives the faith (and only the latter one is biblical).
God does not believe for me; rather, he gave me faith, because of which I believe in him. This is like a surgeon giving a man a new heart; the surgeon does not pump the man's blood round his body, but the new heart, which now belongs to the patient, does the pumping.
Ez. 36:26,27 (W.E.B.)
26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.
Rom. 9:15,16
15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
I didn't need to ask.
Your teaching aligns exactly with reformed churches.
If I walked into a reformed church their answers to these questions would mirror every answer you gave.
I agree they are gifts from God.
The difference between us is, you believe God withholds these gifts from some because He doesn't love them.
The few whom He does love, He miraculously gives them repentance and faith.
2 Timothy 2:24-26 Decalvinized,
- if God perhaps may give them repentance...
Calvinists interpret the verse to mean that God must irresistably(TULIP, I irresistable grace), regenerate an individual before that person can repent and believe the truth.
Therefore the born depraved sinner is saved/regenerated before he even believes and repents.
This eliminates the gospel as the power that saves. Instead it is a miraculous direct operation of the Holy Spirit on the individual that saves them. Because they are already saved they then are able to believe and repent.
However the passage does not say that God grants repentance exclusively to the elect nor does it say that repentance is irresistible.
Nothing in David1701 interpretation of this passage is Biblical.
How then does God grant repentance and belief?
Though the word, the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:17,
- so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God
David1701 teaches faith is not by mans own will of hearing the gospel and then choosing to believe it.
He teaches man is so totally depraved that he cannot choose to give His life to Jesus by only hearing the gospel. Not what the scripture teaches.
Repentance is granted by God the same way faith is.
Through the gospel.
Acts 2:37-38,
- now when they heard this(the gospel) they were pricked in the heart and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren what shall we do,
- then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
Repentant heart comes from hearing the gospel NOT BEFORE hearing the gospel as David1701 doctrine teaches.
Notice how repentance is connected with hearing the gospel and believing it.
2Timothy 2:24-25,
- in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance leading toward acknowledgment of the truth(gospel)
God gives repentance to those who acknowledge the truth of the gospel.
God gives the ability to everyone who believes the truth to repent.
What is fictional is you teaching man cannot believe by his own free will.
2Timothy 2:25-26,
- in meekness instructing those who oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth,
- and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will
Acts 2:40,
- and with many other words did he testify and exhort saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation
The atonement is either limited in scope or limited in efficacy.
Mans will can be Gods will or Man can use his will to be a slave to satan.
Nothing heretical about free will to be saved.
You calling mans free will ability to choose God heretical teaching is what is in reality heretical teaching.
2Peter 1:10,
- wherefore rather brethren give diligence to make your calling and election sure FOR IF YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL
They have the ability to keep themselves saved. God does not U unconditionally elect some without man playing no part.
Man himself must do things so that he may never fall.
Acts 16:30,
- and brought them out and said, Sirs what must I do to be saved
Paul did not believe in David1701 doctrine.
If he did he would not of told him that he could do something to be saved.
David1701 would have told the Jailer that it was heretical to think man does something to be saved.
But Paul did not correct the Jailer's desire from his own heart.
Instead Paul told him what he could do to be saved,
Acts 16:30-31,
- and they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house
Your calvinist doctrine is heresy.
You created a false dichotomy.
You claim one or the other Jesus or mans free will.
Jesus gave man free will to choose.
Both, I believe Jesus saves and God gave man the ability to choose.
Revelation 22:17,
- and the Spirit and the bride say come and let him that heareth
say come and let him that is thirsty come, and whosoever will let him take the water of life freely
Whosoever will. That's mans free will to come to God.
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You did not believe on your own.
God had to miraculously give you belief.
I am correct.
Your doctrine contradicts itself.
You already taught man cannot believe,
You are starting to do as all Calvinists do.
Speak out of both sides of your mouth aka double talk.
You already taught it is a fictitious ability to repent or believe
You called this Pelagianism.
So, Christians, from different backgrounds, who get their teaching about salvation from the Bible, agree with each other: no surprise there...
If everyone were given the gifts of repentance and faith, then everyone would repent and believe, obviously; since they don't, not everyone is given those gifts.
The gospel is the power of God (not by itself, but applied by the power of God) unto salvation, for everyone who believes; but, the unregenerate man is hostile towards God and cannot please him (Rom. 8:7,8); hates the light and will not come to it (John 3:19,20 - contrast this with the one who has been born again, in verse 21) and does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14). This is why we MUST be born again, in order to perceive and enter the Kingdom of God, through faith in Jesus Christ.
Being born again, by itself, does not save you. Salvation has several elements, all of which are necessary (e.g. repentance and faith in Jesus Christ and the cross); and one cannot be said to have been saved until he has believed in Jesus Christ, and has been forgiven.
If God granted repentance to the non-elect, then they would be repentant, which they're not. If God gives you repentance, then you are repentant (that's a truism), so it's irresistible.
Your claims are becoming a little desperate.
Yes, accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit.
1 Thess. 1:4, 5 (E.S.V.)
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
It is absolutely what Scripture teaches, as I've proved.
Now you're lying (that's a sin). I have NEVER said that repentance is given before hearing the gospel.
Repentance is a complete change of mind, leading to a change of behaviour. The very verse you've just quoted says that repentance leads to acknowledging the truth; it is not a consequence of acknowledging the truth, since, the change of mind is needed, in order to acknowledge the truth.
I've come across this kind of thing over and over and over again, with will worshippers. They try to make Scripture say what they want, rather than believing what it says.
I remember clearly something that happened nearly thirty years ago. I was in Bible College, listening to a teacher reading a passage of Scripture (he was a freewiller). He came to the part where it says, "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ."; but, being a freewiller, he couldn't stomach it, so he gagged (literally - he paused and made sort of choking noises) over "...will complete it..." and changed it to "...wants to complete it...".
This was bad enough, but another freewill teacher did exactly the same thing within days, not having heard the first teacher do it, also accompanied by a pause and gagging sounds.
Man does not have so-called Libertarian Free Will; it's a figment of the imagination, and contrary to numerous Scriptures. Man's will is not a loose cannon; it is that within man which attempts to bring the strongest desire to fruition (given the ability and opportunity). Man's will is a slave to his desire and his desire is a slave to his nature.
The freedom we had, before being saved, was freedom from righteousness, as the Bible states.
Eph. 2:1-3 (Webster)
1 And you hath he made alive , who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 In which in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our manner of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
It is not of man's will, nor his works, but of God, who shows mercy to whom he will.
Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, not of works, lest any man should boast.
Again, you are misrepresenting me. If someone asks what to do to be saved, I will tell him that if he believes in Jesus Christ, he will be saved. It is simply a fact that everyone who believes in Jesus Christ will be saved. Acts 16:30 and 31 are not in depth doctrine about how salvation works, they are simply telling a man under conviction of the Holy Spirit that if he believes in Jesus Christ, he will be saved.
This is nonsensical.
Whosoever will simply means everyone who is willing. It does not mean that the unregenerate man will be willing (the Bible is very clear that he won't).
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If a doctor gives you a new heart that pumps blood round your body, does the doctor do the pumping for you, or is it the new heart he's given you (which is now part of you) that does the pumping?
Ez. 36:26,27 (W.E.B.)
26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.
You are AGAIN misrepresenting what I posted.
Unregenerate man cannot repent or believe (because he is hostile towards God (Rom. 8:7,8); hates the light and will not come to it (John 3:19,20) and does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14)). When God makes a person born again, having heard the gospel, he not only can repent and believe, but he does, immediately.
Pelagianism, of which there are various forms, teaches that the natural man has free will, can do good and can believe in Jesus Christ, without needing a work of God in his heart.
"God will have mercy on whom He wills".......amen, except that you can't just pull that little phrase out of the hat and apply it wherever you want.......it is in context of the GOSPEL ("those whom He calls"), not a blanket statement that applies to those He doesn't call.
Jhn 12:44-50
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
(The words Jesus spoke, aka THE GOSPEL, were from the Father as the Father gave Jesus commandment to speak them.......so it is the Father's words that will judge the world on the day of the judgment.)
Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36
“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
1Jo 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 5:5-6
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
The whole unbelieving world is already condemned and under the wrath of God, and is simply awaiting the day when judgment is executed.....like a mass of prisoners on death row......it is only through faith in Christ and His gospel that anyone is freed from the condemnation/wrath and pardoned.
The righteousness of man falls short of the glory sister. In other words it is not sufficient in and of itself for entrance into glory/eternal life. It is only sufficient for earthly temporal blessings in this life, much like under the Law......that is, if people do good things as opposed to bad things, it doesn't bring a curse.
(That doesn't always work for believers, because we undergo the chastisements of God in this life...our path tends to be marked by trials/tribulations, and our reward comes after this life for the most part.)
But don't worry because all who are appointed to eternal life ultimately will be saved.....all who are FOREKNOWN by Him are predestined and will be called, one way or the other...either through preaching or through direct sovereign intervention of God. Those saints who were of faith in the old testament all entered into a living relationship with the Lord.....He revealed Himself to them, much like He reveals Himself to us when we receive Christ. In places where there is no one to preach the gospel, His own arm works salvation...He will reveal Himself to those appointed to eternal life through dreams, visions, etc.
He has mercy on who He wills through the gospel of Christ, not apart from it. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.....
You didn't need to say this directly.
Your theology teaches it.
The only reason anyone repents in your doctrine is because they were already chosen to believe and repent. Every single thing they do is controlled by God. They are Gods puppet.
Even all of your sins, God decreed you to do them in your religion.
You were going to repent before you believed, just as you were going to believe before you believed because God decreed your destiny before you were born!!!
That is why when you calvanist commit sin you believe God has already predetermined for you to commit it. Therefore you were already predetermined to repent before God saved you. Everything you do is "preprogrammed" before you do it.
btw, I didn't sin. But why are you pointing out I supposedly sinned when your doctrine teaches it is God who works evil in all of us? You have a problem with sin? Then you have a problem with your own god, as he is the one who made me to sin.
God ordains everything that comes to pass, remember?
Heres the real problem. You don't remember how you are supposed to think.
You are supposed to think like a calvinist!!!
Just as you supposedly claim to now understand the gospel. God did that, not you. And God created you to not understand the gospel before you understood it.
This is the foolishness of reformed theology.
You teach you could not understand the gospel.
God hid the truth from you.
But now you claim you do understand the gospel. God opened the truth to you.
Why should I believe you?
Its circular reasoning.
You will say: if someone interprets scripture the way calvinists do then they now understand therefore must have been regenerated.
That presupposes calvinist interpretation is rightly dividing scripture.
How could you even know if its rightly dividing when you already believed God hid the truth from you?
God could still be hiding the truth from you and you are just decieved into thinking you have been elected. Every thought you will ever have is divine determinism.
You have no choice or ability to choose not to think you are lost or saved.
Gods word His gospel is not hidden from anyone.
People who don't understand either reject it by their own free will or have not had enough opportunity to be exposed to it. Jesus said if you search you will find the truth.
John 7:17,
- if any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of Myself
Any, Any, Any man shall know the truth if he chooses to know it.
You will twist this to mean only those whom God chooses.
God has chosen all to be saved,
1Timothy 2:3-4,
- for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior
- who will have all to be saved and to come unto,the knowledge of the truth
Exactly.
Before he hears the gospel he is saved in your theology.
Regeneration precedes faith.
he was going to believe and repent and sin etc. Before he ever heard the word. God already predetermined it.
Since your false doctrine teaches one is saved before they believe in the gospel.
Your theology is anti- gospel.
Unscriptual.
At the point of being born again your sins are forgiven, you are justified.
You do not understand Gods word.
You have made a mess of Gods word.
You teach this because of the false doctrine of T, total depravity.
Regeneration is being born again.
You cannot be lost according to Gods word if you are born again.
Heresy. You must make a mess of what is simple to understand because of Total depravity.
One error leads to more error.
There is not one scripture that says the born again are still lost.
You are making up doctrines that are nothing more than speculation.
The blasphemous doctrine of totally depraved T in TULIP.
Listen to what R. C. Sproul Jr. Says about a little girl who was mudered.
He believes this because of his belief in Total Depravity.
" No it does not remotely compare. Because in one instance a little girl received the judgment from God she had earned...."
A calvinist leader tells people this little girls murder was Gods judgment on her for her wicked sins she commited. SHE DESERVED/EARNED HER OWN DEATH/ MURDER!!!
It should be obvious to anyone who is not yet indoctrinated into this wicked theology, that little children do not deserve or earn their own death because of being totally depraved, wicked.
Yet David1701 is trying to convince me, he understands Gods word and since I reject this wicked blasphemy I'm lost.
David1701 has no understanding of who God is.
The god he believes in is not found on the pages of Gods holy word.
1Timothy 2:3-4,
- for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior..
Who will have all men to be saved
David's religion has that little totally depraved murdered little girl in hell.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is GOOD news.
Calvinism is anything but good news.
It is fatalism.
You can know what David1701 teaches is a false gospel by this simple fact. It is not good.
The gospel of Jesus Christ,
Luke 2:10,
- and the angel said unto them, fear not, for behold I bring good tidings of great joy which shall be to ALL people
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Okay, you've gone too far this time. You're going onto a thoroughly deserved status of "ignore".
I'd rather you not contradict the truth of the gospel. To confuse the hearers causing them to not know the truth when it is being revealed to them.
Too far?
Teaching calvinism openly showing the bad, the ugly, and the evil that it really is.
I've got many more quotes from calvinists that teach how they view little children.
None of their views towards babies and children are pleasant to hear.
Calvinists view children as wicked depraved little vipers that deserve hell.
The true God and His gospel does not view children as evil.
Matthew 18:3,
- and said, verily I say unto you, except ye be converted and become as little children ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven
Calvinism never was, never will be God's word.
David1701, I hope you will leave this unwholesome, anti-biblical, anti- gospel, anti- Christian theology.
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