Did Jesus return around 70 AD?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks for the response,

You're welcome.

I strongly disagree with your claim of Babylon,

I don't care. You won't address the points I made about the global nature of Babylon and how some of the descriptions of it do not fit Jerusalem. You see the similarities with Jerusalem while ignoring the differences and you won't address that. So, let's move on.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We Disagree, The Sentence Of Crucifixion Began When Pilate Washed His Hands In Jerusalem, From Pilate's Sentence To The Lord's Last Breath On Calvary Was The Crucifixion

Jerusalem Is Mystery Babylon The Great, Just As God's Word Teaches As Seen Above In Post #439 Above

The Horse Is Dead, We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

You already said the horse is dead before, but here you are repeating yourself again, anyway. The text doesn't say "where our Lord was sentenced to death", it says "where our Lord was crucified". The word crucifixion refers to the actual act of Him being nailed to the cross and killed and that happened outside of Jerusalem. So, Babylon is not Jerusalem. Agree to disagree and move on with your life now.

 

[Truth7t7]

You already said the horse is dead before, but here you are repeating yourself again, anyway. The text doesn't say "where our Lord was sentenced to death", it says "where our Lord was crucified". The word crucifixion refers to the actual act of Him being nailed to the cross and killed and that happened outside of Jerusalem. So, Babylon is not Jerusalem. Agree to disagree and move on with your life now.

We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

The great city is also spiritually called Egypt (Rev 11:8). How can that apply to Jerusalem?

It's called Sodom and Egypt, comparing the spiritual condition of Jerusalem at the time of the end

This symbolic woman/city is called Babylon because Babylon was a world empire with a global scope well beyond just Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is guilty of the prophets blood not Babylon, scripture interprets itself, before your eyes, from the very mouth of God Jesus Christ, clear, simple, easy to understand

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[ewq1938]

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Did all people slain on the Earth get slain in Jerusalem?

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

In Rev 18 Babylon is described as a port city. Is Jerusalem a port city?

 

[claninja]

Things about to be? Where are you coming up with that? It's referring to things that would happen after that without indicating one way or another how far in the future those things would be.

The Greek word is μέλλει, the present indicative active of μέλλω, meaning “is about to” or “is going to.” The verb itself does not establish how soon the event must occur, nor does it imply a long delay. The surrounding context is needed to determine imminency or delay.

In Revelation 1:19, the phrase ἃ μέλλει γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα refers to things that are to happen “after these things.” But Revelation has already established its temporal framework: the events “must soon take place” (1:1), and “the time is near” (1:3).

Therefore, the natural contextual reading is that the “about to be” events John writes down are expected in the near future, not in a distant, unspecified future. Any interpretation that places them thousands of years later must account for these explicit statements of imminence.

Why not? Do you think "a thousand years" could figuratively represent a 10 year time period? 50 years? I don't even recall your understanding of the thousand years exactly, but preterists typically believe that Revelation 20 refers to events up to 70 AD which would make the thousand years a much short time than a literal thousand years. What is your take on it?

No, I don’t think it refers to the 40 years leading up to 70ad. IMHO, that’s the preterist attempt to conform and bend revelation to their framework.

I was saying I didn’t understand your point. Are you arguing, how can all these events of chapters 4-22 be “imminent” to John while chapters 21-22 are at least 1000 plus years future to John, IF chapter 20 is read literally?

Just because it has some things in common with Jerusalem doesn't make it Jerusalem. Babylon is the mother of harlots, of which Jerusalem is just one. It has a global scope, unlike Jerusalem. It reigns over the kings of the earth. It is the hold of EVERY foul spirit and a cage for EVERY unclean bird (Rev 18:2). It says "ALL the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”. It says Babylon sits on many waters which represent "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues". The scope of Babylon is clearly beyond just Jerusalem. You are seeing the similarities with Jerusalem and somehow missing the differences.

Revelation is apocalyptic literature, full of highly symbolic and hyperbolic language. This language does not rule out Jerusalem as the identity of the harlot, especially when no clear interpretation is given.

That being said, I’m focusing on the similarities, not the differences. So let’s assume the harlot/great city is not apostate Jerusalem because of these hyperbolic differences. Why use so many OT/NT scriptural similarities consistent with apostate Jerusalem to describe the harlot/great city?

For example, If Jesus charged first century apostate Jerusalem with all the righteous bloodshed, why is the angel applying the guilt of all righteous bloodshed to another entity?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We Disagree

I agree.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's called Sodom and Egypt, comparing the spiritual condition of Jerusalem at the time of the end

How is future Jerusalem spiritually like Sodom and Egypt?

Jerusalem is guilty of the prophets blood not Babylon, scripture interprets itself, before your eyes, from the very mouth of God Jesus Christ, clear, simple, easy to understand

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

That was up until that time when Jesus was speaking almost 2,000 years ago. You're not a preterist, so you see Babylon as current or future Jerusalem while they see it as first century Jerusalem. Are you trying to claim that current Jerusalem is responsible for all the righteous blood shed on the earth for the past 2,000 years, also? How can that be the case?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Greek word is μέλλει, the present indicative active of μέλλω, meaning “is about to” or “is going to.” The verb itself does not establish how soon the event must occur, nor does it imply a long delay. The surrounding context is needed to determine imminency or delay.

In Revelation 1:19, the phrase ἃ μέλλει γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα refers to things that are to happen “after these things.” But Revelation has already established its temporal framework: the events “must soon take place” (1:1), and “the time is near” (1:3).

Do you think the thousand years, literal or not, soon took place? How can you make sense of that?

Therefore, the natural contextual reading is that the “about to be” events John writes down are expected in the near future, not in a distant, unspecified future. Any interpretation that places them thousands of years later must account for these explicit statements of imminence.

So, do you think a passage like Revelation 19:11-21 happened soon after 95 AD?

No, I don’t think it refers to the 40 years leading up to 70ad. IMHO, that’s the preterist attempt to conform and bend revelation to their framework.

You say "their framework". Are you not a preterist? Well, you clearly are. But, I guess you have some different views than a typical preterist.

I was saying I didn’t understand your point.

Obviously, but I don't know why not.

Are you arguing, how can all these events of chapters 4-22 be “imminent” to John while chapters 21-22 are at least 1000 plus years future to John, IF chapter 20 is read literally?

No, I'm saying how can even a figurative thousand years be imminent or soon take place? That would require the thousand years to figuratively represent a relatively short amount of time. Explain how that can be the case.

Revelation is apocalyptic literature, full of highly symbolic and hyperbolic language.

Of course. I make that same point many times to Premils and it falls on deaf ears.

This language does not rule out Jerusalem as the identity of the harlot, especially when no clear interpretation is given.

That being said, I’m focusing on the similarities, not the differences.

That's the problem. You need to look at the description of Babylon as a whole and not just the similarities in order to determine what it represents.

So let’s assume the harlot/great city is not apostate Jerusalem because of these hyperbolic differences. Why use so many OT/NT scriptural similarities consistent with apostate Jerusalem to describe the harlot/great city?

I think because God wants us to remember what He did to "apostate Jerusalem" long ago. When people rebel against Him and refuse to repent, He wants us to keep in mind how He will respond. But, in the future, His response will be global and not just local to Jerusalem. Passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 make that clear.

For example, If Jesus charged first century apostate Jerusalem with all the righteous bloodshed, why is the angel applying the guilt of all righteous bloodshed to another entity?

Who is responsible for all the righteous bloodshed since then? Did history end back then? The book covers things that lead up to the future second coming of Christ at which point He will destroy His enemies and the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in. Babylon. whatever it represents, will be destroyed at that point. So, Babylon is not just a first century entity.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In Rev 18 Babylon is described as a port city. Is Jerusalem a port city?

Good question. Physical Jerusalem is not a port city, which is one reason I do not believe it is Babylon the Great described in Revelation 17–18.

Many people assume that the “kings of the earth” are political leaders and that the “merchants of the earth” are literal businessmen or people working in the stock market. But I believe Revelation 18 is describing something much more significant in spiritual terms.

Let us read the passage in context:

“And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! ” “And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Revelation 18:9-20).

The woman represents the unfaithful New Testament congregation. In this picture, the elect are represented by the kings and merchants: we have been made kings in God’s kingdom, and we have carried the precious riches of the Gospel by merchandising it to the world as a witnesses.

We were once within the congregation and were joined to her even as she became unfaithful. That is why God calls His people to come out of her:

“Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
—Revelation 18:4

Think about that: If Babylon has nothing to do with the congregation, why are God’s people found in her and commanded to come out? Should they remain joined to a church that has committed spiritual fornication? No!

Spiritually, Babylon has become a dwelling place of false prophets and false christs—a habitation of foul spirits and unclean and hateful birds (Revelation 18:2). Just as God brought Lot and his family out of Sodom, He calls His chosen Elect out of the unfaithful congregation as He judges her. This is why Christ said, "WHEN" they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, they must flee (Matthew 24:15–16). They come out so they will not share in her sins or receive her plagues. Selah!

The Two Witnesses represent God’s elect, whose testimony was once heard within the congregation. They are “killed” in the street of the great city when their testimony is silenced as false prophets and false christs gain influence and take sit in the temple (church). People rejoice over them and exchange gifts because they are pleased that the truth has been silenced because it exposes their sins, (Revelation 11:7–10).

But God sends the spirit of life into the Two Witnesses, and they stand upon their feet again (Revelation 11:11). Their testimony is revived. As God’s people come out, they proclaim that judgment has come upon the unfaithful church, and they mourn what has happened to her.

The merchants standing afar off and weeping portray that sorrow. They "see" the smoke of her burning and recognize that the congregation has become desolate. At that time, no man will be able to buy their merchandise of Gospel: the precious riches of the Gospel have been rejected and removed as false doctrines have taken their place.

That is the point: Babylon’s loss of riches is spiritual. The unfaithful congregation has been stripped of the riches of the Gospel and left spiritually naked and desolate. God therefore calls His people to come out of her. Selah!

In God's eyes, we the chosen Christians, are actually the shipmasters, company in ships, and sailors who trade by sea (aka world) to proclaim the good news to the lost. We mourn, weeping and wailing, becasue we now see that the great city Babylon (church) has become unfaithfulness and her spiritual riches that we made trade with has been gone .In other words, she has made desolate. The abomination of desolation. That is the signs of Christ's return because He has to judge his unfaithful congregation first before the world at the Second Coming.

Selah!

We need to understand this. God is not speaking here about geopolitical nations, political leaders, stock market, AI, the Roman Catholic Church as a religious institution, or physical Jerusalem. Not at all as those carnal people thinks!

They totally missed it and are looking at the wrong place for "physical fulfillments" with certain city or physical merchandise that we buy and sell, etc.

He is speaking about His congregation, the church, that was supposed to represent Christ and His Word, which has become unfaithful. False prophets and false christs have arisen within it. They are indeed army of Gog and Magog! They are coming with false signs and wonders that lead church into apostasy and bringing the congregation to spiritual desolation. This is the true identity of Babylon the Great—a mystery that remains hidden from those who lack spiritual discernment.

Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

I would also like to address a claim often made by those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. They may insist that the elect are caught up to be with Christ before Babylon falls. That is incorrect.

Because, I don't read of any "being caught up to be with Christ" here, I read these kings and merchants stand "far off" from this great city, mourning. The SAME great city in Revelation 11. Consider wisely:

Revelation 11:8

• "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Spiritually she is an abominable city, but she is the Church! The place where the Lord's Witnesses are killed "BY" those of the Church! Hello?

Selah!