Do Catholics Worship Mary? What Does Scripture Actually Say?

[Bruce_Leiter]

Many people claim Catholics worship Mary.

But worship and honor are not the same thing.

Scripture commands worship of God alone:

"You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve." (Matthew 4:10)

Catholics agree completely.

God alone is Creator.
God alone is Almighty.
God alone is worshiped.

Yet Scripture also teaches that certain people can be honored without being worshiped.

The angel Gabriel said to Mary:

"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." (Luke 1:28)

Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, proclaimed:

"Blessed are you among women." (Luke 1:42)

and

"Why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

Mary Herself prophesied:

"From now on all generations will call me blessed." (Luke 1:48)

Notice what Scripture does not say.

It does not say Mary is God.
It does not say Mary is equal to God.
It does not say Mary should be worshiped.

But it does say She is blessed among women, the mother of the Lord, and someone whom all generations will call blessed.

Therefore, honoring Mary is biblical.
Worshiping Mary is not.

The real question is not whether Mary should be honored.
Scripture already answers that.

The question is whether honoring the mother of Jesus automatically equals worship.
Scripture says otherwise.

The difference between honoring Mary and worshiping Her is the same difference between honoring a servant of God and worshiping God Himself.

Yes, @Moonwood, I would go further and say that praying to Mary, as in the "Hail Marys," is impossible. Why? If she isn't God, as she definitely isn't, she is not everywhere to hear all those prayers. Instead, her soul is limited to one place in heaven instead of being able to hear and answer all those Rosary prayers. Only God is everywhere and able to hear all believers' prayers.

 

[Moonwood]

An image treated as though the image possesses Reverence, and to be Bowed Down to, is an IDOL.

You say:

An image treated as though the image possesses Reverence, and to be Bowed Down to, is an IDOL.

If that's your definition of idol worship, then it doesn't appear to apply to Catholicism, because Catholics:

1. do not believe statues they bow before possess divine power;
2. do not believe Mary is a goddess;
3. do not offer Mary the worship due to God alone;
4. do not treat statues as divine beings.

So simply pointing out that a statue exists, or that someone bows before it, does not by itself establish idolatry. The question remains: what exactly are Catholics doing that meets your definition of idol worship?

You also say:

A heavenly Image God gave to specific men, of its look, its material, its placement, its purpose…
Is not an IDOL…

But that's precisely the principle I've been asking you to demonstrate from Scripture. Where does Scripture say that only religious images explicitly commanded by God are lawful? The Second Commandment never says: "You may make only those images I specifically command." That's a distinction you're introducing into the text. We both agree that God commanded sacred images to be made. Therefore, the mere existence of a sacred image cannot be what Exodus 20 condemns. So which is the distinguishing principle? Is an image forbidden because God did not specifically command it? Or is an image an idol because it is treated as a god? Those are two different arguments, and I still haven't seen where Scripture teaches the first one.

 

[Moonwood]

Let me show you three photos that I took from inside of St. Leonard Catholic Church in the north end of Boston this summer. As you are well aware, everything about the design of a Catholic Church is done with a purpose. And also, as you well know, the altar is the focal point of every Catholic Church, since that's where the Eucharist is celebrated.

Now, look at this first photo. See the alter in the middle towards the back. Now look to the sides. There are two statues - one on the left and one on the right. The one on the left (just to the left of the pillar, wearing white, holding out his hand) is Jesus. Prominent place as far up towards the altar as possible.

Now look to the right, opposite of Jesus. Same distance away from the altar as Jesus is. Who is that? Not God the Father. Not the Holy Spirit. It's...Mary. Equidistant from the altar - the center of Catholic worship - as Jesus is.

View attachment 93100

Now let's zoom in on Mary, because there's something interesting about this statue. Look at her feet. She's standing on top of something. The world, as it happens to be. But on top of the world is something else. A serpent. And in the serpent's mouth is a piece of fruit.

View attachment 93101

Here's a close-up of this.

View attachment 93099

What is this serpent? Well, it's the god of this world, the one who tempted Eve in the garden to eat the fruit. It's THAT serpent.

And what is Eve doing to the serpent? Crushing its head.

Again, these things aren't by happenstance. It's totally by design, and the sculpture is making a statement. What's the statement? It's that Mary is crushing the serpent that tempted Eve in the garden.

Now why does this matter?

Well, look at Genesis 3:15 - "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

This is universally regarded as a prophecy of the Messiah. HE is the seed of the woman who shall bruise (crush) the head of the serpent. This is about Jesus. Jesus is the fulfillment of this prophecy. Eve is a type, or a foreshadowing, of Mary. The serpent bruising/crushing the heel of her offspring is always understood as Jesus' suffering on the cross, but His victory over sin, death, and the serpent in the resurrection is Him crushing the serpent's head.

This is not controversial - this is standard Christian theology across all Christian perspectives - Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, you name it.

But what does this statue represent?

It's not Jesus crushing the serpent's head.

It's MARY crushing the serpent's head.

It's MARY doing what only the Messiah is prophesied to do.

Mary is taking the place of Jesus here. Mary is defeating sin and death and the serpent, defeating the god of this world. Not Jesus doing it, but rather MARY doing it. Mary has assumed Jesus' role as messiah, as redeemer (redemptrix, in the feminine).

Mary is the same distance from the altar as Jesus is. It is Mary, not Jesus, crushing the serpent's head. Mary is portrayed here in this Catholic church as being a redeemer, and in Catholic language, the co-redemptrix with Christ.


Now, you can say that the Catholic Church doesn't worship Mary, but (a) in the rosary there are nine times more prayers to Mary than to the Father, and (b) this example shows that in fact, Mary is portrayed as equal to Jesus, and in fact taking Jesus' place as the messiah who crushes the serpent's head.

When I was in the church, I couldn't believe what I was looking at. I mean, I *could* believe it, because having grown up Catholic, I know the emphasis placed on Mary. But this isn't mere respect for Mary. This isn't even just veneration. This is out and out idolatry, with Mary taking the place of Jesus.

Ivan, you're arguing as though Catholics believe Mary replaced Jesus. We don't. Christ alone is the divine Redeemer. Yet Catholic tradition teaches that Mary uniquely cooperated in the work of redemption, which is why She is called Co-Redemptrix.

Mary is not a rival to Christ but His most perfect associate. As the New Eve united to the New Adam, She freely consented to the Incarnation, shared in His sufferings, and was united to Him at Calvary. Without Mary's fiat, there would have been no Incarnation; without the Incarnation, there would have been no Redemption.

Simeon himself foretold this unique union of their missions when he prophesied concerning Christ and then turned specifically to Mary: "And a sword will pierce your own soul also" (Luke 2:35). The Redeemer and the Co-Redemptrix were foretold together. Christ's Heart would be pierced physically and Mary's heart spiritually. From the Presentation in the Temple, God revealed that the Mother would share in the sufferings connected with the mission of the Son.

Mary became the Co-Redeemer and Victim with Him. She was present in every stage of redemption, and without Mary we would not have had the Redeemer. This does not make Her equal to Christ. Rather, it affirms Her unique participation in His redemptive mission.

So when Catholics honor Mary crushing the serpent, they are not saying She took Jesus' place. They are acknowledging that God willed Her participation in Christ's victory over Satan. To reject Mary's cooperation in redemption is to reject a reality found in Scripture itself, beginning with Her fiat in Luke 1:38, foretold by Simeon's prophecy in Luke 2:35, revealed in Her role as the New Eve, and fulfilled in Her union with Christ at Calvary.

Mary is not the Redeemer by nature, but She is the Co-Redemptrix by grace. Christ redeemed the world without assistance from necessity, yet God freely chose that the Woman foretold in Genesis would cooperate with the Redeemer in the work of mankind's restoration. The Cross was never Christ's mission alone. From the Annunciation to Calvary, and from Simeon's prophecy to the piercing of Her maternal Heart beneath the Cross, Scripture presents Mary as uniquely associated with the saving mission of Her Son.

 

[Moonwood]

Yes, @Moonwood, I would go further and say that praying to Mary, as in the "Hail Marys," is impossible. Why? If she isn't God, as she definitely isn't, she is not everywhere to hear all those prayers. Instead, her soul is limited to one place in heaven instead of being able to hear and answer all those Rosary prayers. Only God is everywhere and able to hear all believers' prayers.

That argument assumes that Mary would have to possess God's omnipresence in order to know about prayers directed to her. Catholics don't believe that.

Catholics agree that only God is omnipresent and omniscient by nature. The question is whether God can make the saints in Heaven aware of the prayers and needs of believers on earth.

Scripture already shows that the saints in Heaven are not cut off from earthly events. The souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9-10 are aware that justice has not yet been carried out on earth. Hebrews 12:1 speaks of a "great cloud of witnesses" surrounding believers. Revelation 5:8 depicts heavenly figures presenting the prayers of the saints before God.

So the Catholic claim is not that Mary independently hears billions of prayers through Her own divine power. The claim is that whatever knowledge the saints possess comes from God.

After all, everyone agrees that angels are finite creatures, not omnipresent beings. Yet Scripture portrays angels as aware of earthly events and active in God's plan. Their awareness does not require them to be omniscient; it depends on God.

Likewise, Catholics do not believe Mary hears prayers because She possesses God's attributes. They believe that if Mary is aware of those prayers, it is because God permits it.

Therefore the real question is not, "Is Mary omnipresent?" Catholics agree She is not. The real question is, "Can God make the saints in Heaven aware of the prayers of believers on earth?" That's the point that would need to be demonstrated from Scripture, not simply assumed.

 

[Moonwood]

Well no matter what Scripture says, millions of Catholics worship MAry. Where I grew up, there were more Romanist churches dedicated to Mary than to Jesus!

Sisters and priests all said to worship Mary. Mary is called Co-redemptrix, Co-mediatrix, Queen of heaven, amongst others. There are novenas to Mary, Scapulas, whole books of prayers to Mary both intercessory and adoration. As George Bush said, when one interacts with Mary, there is very little that distinguishes it from the worship of God, so if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck-- it's a duck!

Churches named after Mary, Marian prayers, novenas, scapulars, and Marian titles do not by themselves establish worship. After all, Scripture itself gives Mary extraordinary honor:

• "Blessed are you among women" (Luke 1:42)
• "the mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43)
• "all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48)

The existence of special honor does not automatically equal worship.

More importantly, none of the examples you listed demonstrate that Catholics believe Mary is God, equal to God, the Creator, or worthy of the adoration that belongs to God alone.

You mention titles such as Co-Redemptrix, Co-Mediatrix, and Queen of Heaven, but merely listing titles does not establish worship. The question is what those titles mean, not whether they sound impressive.

Likewise, churches named after Mary no more prove Mary is worshipped than churches named after Peter, Paul, Joseph, or the Apostles prove those saints are worshipped.

You also appeal to your personal experience:

"Sisters and priests all said to worship Mary."

If that's literally what they taught, then they were contradicting official Catholic teaching, which explicitly states that worship belongs to God alone.

Ultimately, "it looks like worship to me" is not an argument. The question is whether Catholics are offering Mary the adoration due to God alone.

That's the claim that still needs to be demonstrated, not simply asserted.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Ivan, you're arguing as though Catholics believe Mary replaced Jesus. We don't. Christ alone is the divine Redeemer. Yet Catholic tradition teaches that Mary uniquely cooperated in the work of redemption, which is why She is called Co-Redemptrix.

Mary is not a rival to Christ but His most perfect associate. As the New Eve united to the New Adam, She freely consented to the Incarnation, shared in His sufferings, and was united to Him at Calvary. Without Mary's fiat, there would have been no Incarnation; without the Incarnation, there would have been no Redemption.

Simeon himself foretold this unique union of their missions when he prophesied concerning Christ and then turned specifically to Mary: "And a sword will pierce your own soul also" (Luke 2:35). The Redeemer and the Co-Redemptrix were foretold together. Christ's Heart would be pierced physically and Mary's heart spiritually. From the Presentation in the Temple, God revealed that the Mother would share in the sufferings connected with the mission of the Son.

Mary became the Co-Redeemer and Victim with Him. She was present in every stage of redemption, and without Mary we would not have had the Redeemer. This does not make Her equal to Christ. Rather, it affirms Her unique participation in His redemptive mission.

So when Catholics honor Mary crushing the serpent, they are not saying She took Jesus' place. They are acknowledging that God willed Her participation in Christ's victory over Satan. To reject Mary's cooperation in redemption is to reject a reality found in Scripture itself, beginning with Her fiat in Luke 1:38, foretold by Simeon's prophecy in Luke 2:35, revealed in Her role as the New Eve, and fulfilled in Her union with Christ at Calvary.

Mary is not the Redeemer by nature, but She is the Co-Redemptrix by grace. Christ redeemed the world without assistance from necessity, yet God freely chose that the Woman foretold in Genesis would cooperate with the Redeemer in the work of mankind's restoration. The Cross was never Christ's mission alone. From the Annunciation to Calvary, and from Simeon's prophecy to the piercing of Her maternal Heart beneath the Cross, Scripture presents Mary as uniquely associated with the saving mission of Her Son.

Mary cooperated in that she was Jesus' mother.

That's it.

That's no small thing, obviously. Motherhood is a special thing. But that was Mary's cooperation. She bore and raised Jesus. That's not something worth making a statue that shows her crushing the serpent's head, which is something ONLY the Messiah would do.


Somehow we went from Mary being Jesus' mother to Mary being a co-redemptrix, Mary being immaculately conceived and being free from original sin, Mary being "ever virgin" despite having other children, Mary being bodily assumed into heaven, Mary being someone we pray to 9x more than the Father in the rosary, and statues of Mary being given equal station as Jesus.

How in the world did we get from here (Mary as Jesus' humble mother) to there (everything else)?

 

[Taken]

So simply pointing out thata statue exists, or that someone bows before it, does not by itself establish idolatry.

Establishes…what God said to NOT Do.

The question remains: what exactly are Catholics doing that meets your definition of idol worship?

I don’t pretend to speak for thousands of Catholics or anyone who bows down before statues … OF WHAT they ARE “THINKING”.
Catholics “admittedly” claim, they “pray” TO Mary…while bowing before A Statue and Bead Counting.

Anyone, observing can perceive that to be Idol Worship, and mimic. You do not know and neither Do I.

God knows…they were told Not to bow before statues, but Do.

Since My response was what God said, is not to your satisfaction and you continually ask, implying I should KNOW what every person is “thinking” when they bow before statues…
I don’t know or care…
I perceive they have made that statue to be an Idol.
I perceive they are speaking to the one that statue is “supposed” to bodily represent.

Stop grilling me on what I think… and set your thoughts on what God thinks of bowing before a statue of the supposed likeness of a dead body, and making departed spirits your intercessory to God.

But that's precisely the principle I've been asking you to demonstrate from Scripture. Where does Scripture say that only religious images explicitly commanded by God are lawful?

Stop repeating the same over and over.
Nothing is physically restraining you to DEFY Gods Commands, to NOT Do what God Commands.

The Second Commandment never says: "You may make only those images I specifically command."

That's a distinction you're introducing into the text. We both agree that God commanded sacred images to be made.

I suspect you were defiant and conniving from a young age… when your parents said…DO Not DO This … (what your parents Did Do)…You argued, You Did…if caught, your defense was to continue to argue….They Do…So can you.

Your circular game is A bore.

You have FREEWILL… ignore what pleases God…Do as YOU please…

You want to Declare “Your man-devised and made images “SACRED”…Your FREEWILL.

God is your Judge To enter His Kingdom or Not!

 

[beechan]

Where in Scripture are we ever instructed to appeal to physically dead humans in prayer?

You accuse Catholics praying to the deads.
Yet, Matthew 22:32 that God "is not the God of the dead, but of the living, pointing directly to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Jesus did not say Abraham, Isaac and Jacob dead people!

 

[beechan]

We do have verses in the Old Testament of necromancers and spiritists with God forbidding His people from appealing to the dead through them. It is written in the Law. Consider for instance the example written of Saul, who called upon the spirit of Samuel after he died, through the woman of Endor who was known for her ability to call upon dead spirits. (see 1Sam 28)

You equated prayer to saints the same as necromancy.
Biblical necromancy (as forbidden in Deuteronomy 18:10-12) involves trying to conjure, control, or extract forbidden future knowledge from the dead through occult practices. Asking a fellow Christian in Christ's Body to pray for you is an act of charity, not divination.

 

[beechan]

Again, these things aren't by happenstance. It's totally by design, and the sculpture is making a statement. What's the statement? It's that Mary is crushing the serpent that tempted Eve in the garden.

Now why does this matter?

Well, look at Genesis 3:15 - "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

This is universally regarded as a prophecy of the Messiah. HE is the seed of the woman who shall bruise (crush) the head of the serpent. This is about Jesus. Jesus is the fulfillment of this prophecy. Eve is a type, or a foreshadowing, of Mary. The serpent bruising/crushing the heel of her offspring is always understood as Jesus' suffering on the cross, but His victory over sin, death, and the serpent in the resurrection is Him crushing the serpent's head.

This is not controversial - this is standard Christian theology across all Christian perspectives - Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, you name it.

But what does this statue represent?

It's not Jesus crushing the serpent's head.

It's MARY crushing the serpent's head.

It's MARY doing what only the Messiah is prophesied to do.

Ma

Then take a look at Romans 16:20:
"The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."

What is 'your' pointing to? Paul was speaking to regular Christians.
Do you and me replacing Jesus in crushing the serpent's head?

 

[beechan]

Well, look at Genesis 3:15 - "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

There are other manuscripts that read :"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; she shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

 

[beechan]

Let me show you three photos that I took from inside of St. Leonard Catholic Church in the north end of Boston this summer. As you are well aware, everything about the design of a Catholic Church is done with a purpose. And also, as you well know, the altar is the focal point of every Catholic Church, since that's where the Eucharist is celebrated.

What you have missed here is the centre of the Church is the crucifix of Jesus right on top of the altar. It is Jesus that is worshipped, not Mary.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Then take a look at Romans 16:20:
"The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."

What is 'your' pointing to? Paul was speaking to regular Christians.
Do you and me replacing Jesus in crushing the serpent's head?

This statue is referring specifically to crushing the head of the serpent in Genesis 3, which is something only the Messiah does.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

There are other manuscripts that read :"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; she shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

Wow you believe such blasphemous stuff? Why don't you just go become a Jehovah's Witness and believe their "Bible" while you're at it?

 

[Crazy Ivan]

What you have missed here is the centre of the Church is the crucifix of Jesus right on top of the altar. It is Jesus that is worshipped, not Mary.
View attachment 93173

Nice try deflecting us away from the idolatrous statue of Mary.

 

[Dryhn]

There are other manuscripts that read :"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; she shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

SHE ???
Which manuscripts ?

Please list one

​

 

[beechan]

Wow you believe such blasphemous stuff? Why don't you just go become a Jehovah's Witness and believe their "Bible" while you're at it?

Too bad you only know one translation version of Genesis 3:15.
You should broaden your reading!


There are various translation of the Hebrew word 'ipsa'.
She, He, It, They are all used in various version.

If you say Catholic's version of 'SHE' is blasphemous , your version of HE will be among various blasphemous stuffs.
For IT and THEY would not be referring to Jesus as well.

In the THEY version, you and I are to take part in crushing the serpent's head!

Sola scriptura does not mean sola KJV!

 

[beechan]

SHE ???
Which manuscripts ?

Please list one

​

​ ​

study my post #37

 

[Dryhn]

Too bad you only know one translation version of Genesis 3:15.
You should broaden your reading!

View attachment 93198
There are various translation of the Hebrew word 'ipsa'.
She, He, It, They are all used in various version.

If you say Catholic's version of 'SHE' is blasphemous , your version of HE will be among various blasphemous stuffs.
For IT and THEY would not be referring to Jesus as well.

In the THEY version, you and I are to take part in crushing the serpent's head!

Sola scriptura does not mean sola KJV!

Catholic nonsense again

Genesis 3:15 Parallel: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[Dryhn]

study my post #37

and where is your study on Gal 2:7-9 ?

That I would love to read :)