Do Catholics Worship Mary? What Does Scripture Actually Say?

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beechan

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While you speak of ‘original’ text, you use ‘modern Hebrew’. Are you shootings yourself in the foot?

Your pastor only tell you one part of the whole story so that you could focus on attacking the RCC: worshipping Mary!
Satan would be happy for it distanced you from the true church of Jesus.
 

Dryhn

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While you speak of ‘original’ text, you use ‘modern Hebrew’. Are you shootings yourself in the foot?

Your pastor only tell you one part of the whole story so that you could focus on attacking the RCC: worshipping Mary!
Satan would be happy for it distanced you from the true church of Jesus.
Still avoiding Gal 2:7-9
Paul being the answer sought of rubs you the wrong way hey beech :)
 

Dryhn

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While you speak of ‘original’ text, you use ‘modern Hebrew’. Are you shootings yourself in the foot?

Your pastor only tell you one part of the whole story so that you could focus on attacking the RCC: worshipping Mary!
Satan would be happy for it distanced you from the true church of Jesus.
1794462685034.png
 

beechan

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Good to see you doing some homework. So you now know a little bit more about why Catholic Church has statue showing Mary crushing the head of serpent. It is ‘designed’ basing on scripture.

And there is a bigger story about such ‘design’:Mary crushing the head of the serpent. I’ll tell you guys more if you were interested.
 
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Dryhn

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Good to see you doing some homework. So you now know a little bit more about why Catholic Church has statue showing Mary crushing the head of serpent. It is ‘designed’ basing on scripture.
Gal 2:7-9
Paul (not Peter) teaches the Gospel to the heathen/gentile/uncirc

No surprise you refuse to respond :)
 

beechan

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Gal 2:7-9
Paul (not Peter) teaches the Gospel to the heathen/gentile/uncirc

No surprise you refuse to respond :)
You have poor Bible knowledge.
Peter preached to gentiles/uncirc long before Paul.
See Acts 10, Peter baptized the Roman centurion.
 

Dryhn

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You have poor Bible knowledge.
Peter preached to gentiles/uncirc long before Paul.
See Acts 10, Peter baptized the Roman centurion.
vulgate :)
7sed e contra cum vidissent quod creditum est mihi evangelium praeputii sicut Petro circumcisionis

But contrariwise, when they had seen that to me was committed the gospel of the uncircumcision, as to Peter was that of the circumcision.

Now which gospel does VUL teach that Paul taught ?
Or do you need me to read it for you ? :)
 

beechan

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vulgate :)
7sed e contra cum vidissent quod creditum est mihi evangelium praeputii sicut Petro circumcisionis

But contrariwise, when they had seen that to me was committed the gospel of the uncircumcision, as to Peter was that of the circumcision.

Now which gospel does VUL teach that Paul taught ?
Or do you need me to read it for you ? :)
I need you to present your argument clearly and precisely.
 

Moonwood

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Establishes…what God said to NOT Do.

I don’t pretend to speak for thousands of Catholics...

You say:

"An image treated as though the image possesses Reverence, and to be Bowed Down to, is an IDOL."

Yet you also say:

"I don't pretend to speak for thousands of Catholics or anyone who bows down before statues... OF WHAT they ARE 'THINKING'."

That's precisely the difficulty.

If whether an image is an idol depends on how it is being treated, then whether idolatry is taking place depends on what the person believes about the image. Yet you also say you don't know what Catholics are thinking when they bow before a statue. In that case, how have you concluded that idolatry is occurring? Catholics do not believe statues possess divine power. Catholics do not believe Mary is a goddess. Catholics do not offer Mary the worship due to God alone. Catholics do not treat statues as divine beings. So merely pointing out that a statue exists, or that someone bows before it, does not by itself establish idolatry.

You also keep saying:

"God said not to do it."

But that is the very point under discussion. We both agree God condemns idolatry. We both agree God later commanded sacred images to be made. Therefore the mere existence of a sacred image cannot be what Exodus 20 condemns.

Earlier you said:

"A heavenly Image God gave to specific men, of its look, its material, its placement, its purpose... Is not an IDOL."

That seems to mean the difference is whether God specifically commanded the image. If that's your position, then I'm still asking the same question:

Where does Scripture teach that only religious images explicitly commanded by God are lawful?

The Second Commandment never says:

"You may make only those images I specifically command."

That's a distinction you're bringing to the text, and I'm asking where Scripture teaches it.
 

Taken

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You say:

"An image treated as though the image possesses Reverence, and to be Bowed Down to, is an IDOL."
Yet you also say:

"I don't pretend to speak for thousands of Catholics or anyone who bows down before statues... OF WHAT they ARE 'THINKING'."

That's precisely the difficulty.

If whether an image is an idol depends on how it is being treated, then whether idolatry is taking place depends on what the person believes about the image. Yet you also say you don't know what Catholics are thinking when they bow before a statue. In that case, how have you concluded that idolatry is occurring? Catholics do not believe statues possess divine power. Catholics do not believe Mary is a goddess. Catholics do not offer Mary the worship due to God alone. Catholics do not treat statues as divine beings. So merely pointing out that a statue exists, or that someone bows before it, does not by itself establish idolatry.

You also keep saying:

"God said not to do it."

But that is the very point under discussion. We both agree God condemns idolatry. We both agree God later commanded sacred images to be made. Therefore the mere existence of a sacred image cannot be what Exodus 20 condemns.

Earlier you said:

"A heavenly Image God gave to specific men, of its look, its material, its placement, its purpose... Is not an IDOL."

That seems to mean the difference is whether God specifically commanded the image. If that's your position, then I'm still asking the same question:

Where does Scripture teach that only religious images explicitly commanded by God are lawful?

The Second Commandment never says:

"You may make only those images I specifically command."

That's a distinction you're bringing to the text, and I'm asking where Scripture teaches it.
Ex 20:
[4] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
[5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Lev 26:
[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2 Sam 15:
[23] For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idoltary. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

You can …
Bow down to statues of an animal, angel, human…

Treat it with High Regard…where it is placed, how it is cared for…

Venerate it …with deep respect, awe, reverence

Talk TO it…Ask of it…

Lay trinkets about it, bow and kiss it…

And if you do not recognize you have an IDOL…made, set, cared for, for the purpose to be … bowed To, prayed To, Venerated…

You stubbornly fool yourself…and the consequences be yours.

You repeatedly asking me to give you scripture Against such Behavior… I have .
And you have the wherewithall to further read, learn, study…

WHY such behavior was expressly taught to NOT Do.

AND

WHAT shall ultimately become of your statue IDOLS.

Maybe Review…
Ex 32 …

Behavior of Priest ARRON…
Yielding to the People and Their Behavior….
In Conflict with Gods Word…
Reaction of Head MOSES…

Ex 33
Gods Word to MOSES…
Guidance of an Angel of God…
No idols..
Pray TO God.

Not a mystery.
 

Crazy Ivan

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Too bad you only know one translation version of Genesis 3:15.
You should broaden your reading!

View attachment 93198
There are various translation of the Hebrew word 'ipsa'.
She, He, It, They are all used in various version.

If you say Catholic's version of 'SHE' is blasphemous , your version of HE will be among various blasphemous stuffs.
For IT and THEY would not be referring to Jesus as well.

In the THEY version, you and I are to take part in crushing the serpent's head!

Sola scriptura does not mean sola KJV!

Do you agree that this is the proto-evangelium - the first "gospel", the first Messianic prophecy?

This is a passage about the MESSIAH and His victory over Satan.

The Messiah is a HE or a SHE?

You're doing what you say the Catholic Church doesn't do - which is, replacing Jesus with Mary. You are making MARY out to be the Messiah when you translate Gen 3:15 as "she". And thus the statue of Mary crushing the serpent's head makes sense, since you have MARY in the role of Messiah.

But no, you're not worshiping Mary. Of course not. You just have Mary - a humble teenage girl who became the mother of Jesus - as:

- Co-redemptrix
- Messiah figure
- Against all cultural norms and expectations, never having sex (ever virgin!) despite having other sons (must have all been miraculous!)
- Having been immaculately conceived and immune from original sin
- Bodily assumed into heaven
- The object/subject of innumerable statues and shrines
- The subject of 9x as many prayers in the rosary as the Father

But yeah, you don't worship her.

LOL
 
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beechan

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You're doing what you say the Catholic Church doesn't do - which is, replacing Jesus with Mary. You are making MARY out to be the Messiah when you translate Gen 3:15 as "she". And thus the statue of Mary crushing the serpent's head makes sense, since you have MARY in the role of Messiah.
Re:#30 on Romans 16:20
Was Paul replacing Jesus with YOU and ME and THEY??
 

Crazy Ivan

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Re:#30
Was Paul replacing Jesus with YOU and ME and THEY??

Rom 16:20 - "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."

Who is the one doing the crushing? GOD.

Gen 3:15 - "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Who is the one crushing the serpent's head? The Messiah. The Messiah is a MALE.

You're claiming that Gen 3:15 says that SHE (female...Mary) is the one crushing the serpent's head. You're replacing Jesus with Mary. In Rom 16:20, Paul isn't replacing God with us - he's saying that it is GOD who crushes Satan.

You're doing what every bad Bible interpreter does - trying like crazy to find ways to get Scripture to fit your narrative.
 

beechan

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Rom 16:20 - "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."
but Roman 16:20 clearly stated that crush Satan under YOUR feet.
YOUR here means regular Christians.

Sola scruptura said : Bible is the ultimte authority, whch you do not follow!
 

Crazy Ivan

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but Roman 16:20 clearly stated that crush Satan under YOUR feet.
YOUR here means regular Christians.

Sola scruptura said : Bible is the ultimte authority, whch you do not follow!

Right, and Paul is not replacing Jesus with us because it's still GOD who does the crushing. Your interpretation of Gen 3:15 has MARY crushing the serpent's head.

Again, stop trying to get God's Word to say something just so it fits your story.
 
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beechan

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Right, and Paul is not replacing Jesus with us because it's still GOD who does the crushing. Your interpretation of Gen 3:15 has MARY crushing the serpent's head.

Again, stop trying to get God's Word to say something just so it fits your story.
The Catholic Church does not teach Mary replacing Jesus as redeemer too.
Read Catechism of the Catholic Church 410
 

beechan

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You were arguing that Gen 3:15 says "she" as you defended the statue of MARY (not Jesus) crushing the serpent's head.
Catholic church does have artworks showing it is Jesus who crushed the serpent's head:
IMG_7450-480x640.jpg

....only you open your eyes wider to see what the real world is like.