Peter Was Never The Rock

JesusIsFaithful · May 17, 2017

Rock as used in scripture was always a reference to deity. Most of the references can be found here at this link below.

BibleGateway - : God rock

Confirmation that the use of the word rock refers to Christ as Christ also refers to deity is below.

1 Corinthians 10:4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So let us look again at what Peter had said.

Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter is not accredited for giving that revelation about Jesus being the Christ and thus God. It was revealed by the Father. So when Jesus said this next, He was not awarding Peter for that revelation, but testifying about that revelation from the Father.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

We can know this was not about Peter because of what had happened next.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter sure did not last long in face of the power of Satan.

So Jesus was not talking about Peter being that Rock where the gates of hell would not prevail against, but on the revelation that Peter had given from the Father.

Proof that the Rock that Jesus was talking about that the gates of hell will not prevail against is here by testifying of Who holds the keys to hell and death.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

May God cause the increase.

twinc · May 17, 2017

JesusIsFaithful said:
Rock as used in scripture was always a reference to deity. Most of the references can be found here at this link below.

BibleGateway - : God rock

Confirmation that the use of the word rock refers to Christ as Christ also refers to deity is below.

1 Corinthians 10:4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So let us look again at what Peter had said.

Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter is not accredited for giving that revelation about Jesus being the Christ and thus God. It was revealed by the Father. So when Jesus said this next, He was not awarding Peter for that revelation, but testifying about that revelation from the Father.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

We can know this was not about Peter because of what had happened next.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter sure did not last long in face of the power of Satan.

So Jesus was not talking about Peter being that Rock where the gates of hell would not prevail against, but on the revelation that Peter had given from the Father.

Proof that the Rock that Jesus was talking about that the gates of hell will not prevail against is here by testifying of Who holds the keys to hell and death.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

May God cause the increase.

Peter was a stone albeit a precious stone, a gem like a diamond reflecting the light of God and Christ who he loved more than other men - it was and is possible for Peter to fail but impossible for his faith to fail - twinc

Mungo · May 17, 2017

In each gospel Peter makes a profession of faith in Christ:
Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:16)
Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” (Mk 8:29)
And Peter answered, “The Christ of God.” (Lk 9:20)
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life” (Jn 6:28)

However Matthew’s gospel has many details that are not in the other accounts. These are important so I will take Matthew’s account (Mt 16:13-19)
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

But first there are three important points to note:
1. Matthew is a Jew, writing to Jews. His gospel is full of references to the Old Testament to show how Jesus fulfils prophecies. Some are explicit and some are not. But they would have been noticed by his Jewish audience

2. The theme of kingdom runs through Matthew’s gospel. Jesus is not just the Messiah but the promised Davidic king. He starts his gospel “The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”

It is Matthew who records the visit of the Magi who ask Herod “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him.” (Mt 2:2)

3. A painting is not a photograph. By that I meant is photograph is a literal record of something. A painting is an interpretation with the elements in the picture selected and composed to give more information than the bare picture. In the same way the writers of scripture were not just journalists recording an event but they selected the elements they present to give more information than was on the surface. We have to look below that surface and consider each verse carefully.

With those points in mind let us go through this passage.

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
Caesarea Philippi is at the far north of Israel, a long way, probably 3 days walking from Capernaum. In Matthew’s gospel this incident is the only one reported at Caesarea Philippi so this exchange seems to have been the main purpose of his visit. We’ll see why later.

Jesus starts obliquely, asking them "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"

Jesus constantly refers to himself as the Son of Man, but only Matthew uses this phrase leading up to Peter’s profession of faith. Matthew is pointing it up as important. Why?
The ‘Son of Man’ recalls Daniel’s prophecy (Dan 7:13-14)
I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
The Son of Man is the promised future Davidic king

This passage in Daniel comes in the middle of Daniels vision of the four beasts and their explanation. Daniel is particularly concerned with the fourth beast “terrible and dreadful and exceedingly strong; and it had great iron teeth”. This fourth beast is Rome.

14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." The apostles give various answers to his question.
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" A direct question to them. Only one person answers him.
16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Peter who replies and defines who Jesus is, a definition we still use today.

17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Jesus commends Peter for his answer and blesses him. Note that Peter is the only one to reply and as a direct revelation from the Father.

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,…..
Now Jesus continues to address Peter and in return defines who Peter is. He is Rock, and furthermore the rock on which Jesus will build his Church.

Now we come back to the point about Caesarea Philippi. In that place where there is a massive cliff face, at the base of which were various temples to pagan gods. One of these was erected by Herod the Great to the Emperor of Rome, Augustus Caesar. (Ancient Caesarea Philippi - Background Bible Study (Bible History Online)).

Jesus is contrasting these temples, built on rock, to the one he will build on Peter the Rock.

Moreover Caesarea Phillipi, the ancient city of Paneas, was enlarged by Philip the Tetrach renamed Caesarea Philippi to honour the Emperor Tiberius Caesar and his own name of Philip. What Jesus and the apostles were looking at was not just an old pagan shrine, but represented pagan Rome with it’s emperor worship, the fourth beast of Daniel’s prophecy.

Jesus is making a powerful visual statement. It is Rome that his Church will confront and Rome that will be the centre of his Church.

But Peter the Rock?
In John 1:42 Jesus renames Peter from Simon to Kephas (Aramaic for Rock – a big rock)
Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas”
Renaming someone is always significant in the Bible.

St. Paul refers to Kephas in 8 places in both his first letter to the Corinthians and in his letter to the Galations. For example:
“and that he appeared to Kephas, then to the twelve.” (1Cor 15:5)
“Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas” (Gal 1:18)
“and when James and Kephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars” (Gal 2:9)

As Protestants often point out, in the Bible it is Jesus who called the Rock
For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ (1Cor 10:4)
In calling Peter “Rock”, and telling him that he will build his Church on Peter, Jesus is declaring that Peter is the leader of the Apostles and his representative on Earth. He goes on the confirm this:
19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Peter is the only apostle given the keys, and the only apostles singularly given the power to bind and loose.

This wasn’t the first time God chose someone to be his representative before people.
The Lord answered him [Moses], “See! I have made you as God to Pharaoh (Ex 7:1).
God made Moses as God to Pharaoh. In other words Moses was representing God to Pharoah,
The Lord also told him, “I am coming to you in a dense cloud, so that when the people hear me speaking with you, they may always have faith in you also. (Ex 19:9)

An often overlooked point is that Abraham is also referred to as a rock in Is 51:1-2

Protestants object that the word for Peter in the Greek is petros which means a small stone, not rock and that the Greek word for rock (as in “on this rock”) is petra. Peter is therefore not a rock. There are two points to make about this:

1. Although in ancient Greek the distinction may have been significant, by NT times the two words were interchangeable. Moreover it would have been inappropriate for Peter to have been called by the feminine petra rather than the masculine petros. In addition there was a word in regular use for stone, if that is what Jesus meant (lithos – see Jn 19:13)

2. More importantly Jesus did not call Peter either Petra or Petros but the Aramaic Kepha. (meaning Rock). So the above would have been “you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church”.

DPMartin · May 17, 2017

JesusIsFaithful

Your reasoning just ain’t gon-a fly

Here is Jesus calling Peter a stone

Joh_1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Here is Jesus calling himself a stone

Mar_12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Rock is not deity it’s a description of character or properties of, just as Jesus uses the world stone.

You should also note that Jesus points out that Peter is His Father’s chose for Him (Jesus didn’t chose Peter God the Father did). Also, Peter who was to head up the bringing of the Gospel to his fellow Jews who denied Christ who at the time of this event was to come to pass when the masses cry out to crucify Him, had also been guilty of the same when he denied Jesus three times, of which Jesus brought to a close when they were on the beach and Jesus made fish for them, showing that his fellow Jews can and should also be forgiven.

Peter’s not your Rock you trust for your salvation, Jesus is. Why complicate that. Jesus is the Son of God the Word of God the foundation of all things.

As far as Peter the rock, there’s good arguments on both sides of that fence. Thing is, what did Jesus say?

But I would point out that, the revelation to Peter that is of God that Jesus is the Son of God, is the rock Jesus refers to, that the church shall be built on. To experience that revelation is to know, hence Peter knew Jesus is the Son of God, and how can what you know by experience, be changed by any man?

epostle1 · May 17, 2017

DPMartin said:
JesusIsFaithful
Your reasoning just ain’t gon-a fly
Here is Jesus calling Peter a stone

As it has been pointed out, the Greek word for stone is lithos,which not found in Matthew.

Joh_1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

By interpretation, you can't be taught anything. Find a Greek lexicon that says "lithos"

Here is Jesus calling himself a stone
Mar_12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

There are multiple metaphors for Christ and the Church. Jesus is the builder who builds His Church on the Rock of Peter. Peter doesn't build anything independently.

Rock is not deity it’s a description of character or properties of, just as Jesus uses the world stone.

Jesus spoke Aramiac, Greek is a later translation. The original language Jesus spoke is more forceful, and it doesn't have constructive pronouns and grammatical problems found in the Greek. "You are Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my Church." That's why you cannot accept the language Jesus spoke.

You should also note that Jesus points out that Peter is His Father’s chose for Him (Jesus didn’t chose Peter God the Father did). Also, Peter who was to head up the bringing of the Gospel to his fellow Jews who denied Christ who at the time of this event was to come to pass when the masses cry out to crucify Him, had also been guilty of the same when he denied Jesus three times, of which Jesus brought to a close when they were on the beach and Jesus made fish for them, showing that his fellow Jews can and should also be forgiven.
Peter’s not your Rock you trust for your salvation, Jesus is.

A non sequitur. Rock has numerous meanings in scripture. Jesus is the rock does not mean Peter is not the rock (in a different sense),that's false dichotomous thinking and it's unbiblical. Proper biblical thinking is both/and, not either/or.

Why complicate that. Jesus is the Son of God the Word of God the foundation of all things.
As far as Peter the rock, there’s good arguments on both sides of that fence. Thing is, what did Jesus say?
But I would point out that, the revelation to Peter that is of God that Jesus is the Son of God, is the rock Jesus refers to, that the church shall be built on. To experience that revelation is to know, hence Peter knew Jesus is the Son of God, and how can what you know by experience, be changed by any man?

Matt. 16:17-19

But as the passions of the Reformation era have cooled, and Protestant scholars have taken a more dispassionate look at this text, they have come to agree more and more that Jesus was referring to Peter himself as the rock. Of course, they disagree with the Catholic interpretation of what this means, but many now agree that the Catholic explanation of the grammar of the text is correct.x

The following quotations, all of which are from Protestant Bible scholars, are taken from the book Jesus, Peter & the Keys: a Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy (Scott Butler et al., (Santa Barbara, CA: Queenship Publishing), 1996).

William Hendriksen Member of the Reformed Christian Church, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary says Peter is the Rock

Gerhard Maier Leading conservative evangelical Lutheran theologian says Peter is the Rock.

Donald A. Carson III Baptist and Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Seminary says Peter is the Rock

John Peter Lange German Protestant scholar says Peter is the Rock

John A. Broadus Baptist author says Peter is the Rock

J. Knox Chamblin Presbyterian and New Testament Professor, Reformed Theological Seminary says Peter is the Rock

Craig L. Blomberg Baptist and Professor of New Testament, Denver Seminary says Peter is the Rock

David Hill Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Department of Biblical Studies, University of Sheffield, England says Peter is the Rock

Suzanne de Dietrich Presbyterian theologian says Peter is the Rock

Donald A. Hagner Fuller Theological Seminary says Peter is the Rock

____________________________________________________________

JesusIsFaithful · May 17, 2017

twinc said:
Peter was a stone albeit a precious stone, a gem like a diamond reflecting the light of God and Christ who he loved more than other men - it was and is possible for Peter to fail but impossible for his faith to fail - twinc

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Correct. Peter was never the Rock. And that Rock was Christ.

JesusIsFaithful · May 17, 2017

Mungo said:
But Peter the Rock?
In John 1:42 Jesus renames Peter from Simon to Kephas (Aramaic for Rock – a big rock)
Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas”
Renaming someone is always significant in the Bible.

St. Paul refers to Kephas in 8 places in both his first letter to the Corinthians and in his letter to the Galations. For example:
“and that he appeared to Kephas, then to the twelve.” (1Cor 15:5)
“Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas” (Gal 1:18)
“and when James and Kephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars” (Gal 2:9)

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Not a rock, but a stone.

As Protestants often point out, in the Bible it is Jesus who called the Rock
For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ (1Cor 10:4)
In calling Peter “Rock”, and telling him that he will build his Church on Peter, Jesus is declaring that Peter is the leader of the Apostles and his representative on Earth. He goes on the confirm this:
19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Peter is the only apostle given the keys, and the only apostles singularly given the power to bind and loose.

Not so.

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So it is an assumption that the loosing and the binding was only given to Peter when there were other disciples in the place.

2. More importantly Jesus did not call Peter either Petra or Petros but the Aramaic Kepha. (meaning Rock). So the above would have been “you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church”.

Scriptures of John 1:42 says it is stome; not rock.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Jesus is the Rock as in the chief cornerstone that the church is built on; not Peter. There is no reason to give Peter that title when the Father revealed that through him that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. It is upon what Peter had testified which is about Jesus that the Church is built on.

As for the church at Rome, the Vatican, where supposedly the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; there are a lot of confirming sources by Catholics that Satanism is being practiced there.

Satanism in the Vatican

Peter was married; and for Catholics to designate him as the first Pope, it is a mystery why Catholics do not question the validity of a the requirement for the priests to be celibate, let alone the future Popes.

1 Timothy 3:1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Needless to say, it is a safe bet that the church at Rome was nothing that Peter has set an example for so Jesus was not calling Peter the Rock, but a stone, and it is in what he has said about Jesus Christ is what the church will be built on for He alone is the chief cornerstone.

JesusIsFaithful · May 17, 2017

DPMartin said:
JesusIsFaithful

Your reasoning just ain’t gon-a fly

Only God can cause the increase. I see what He meant in His words since scripture cannot go against scripture.

Here is Jesus calling Peter a stone

Your reference is left out of the quote box so readers can read it below.

Joh_1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

That is correct.

Here is Jesus calling himself a stone

Again your reference is left out of the quote box for readers to read.

Mar_12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

The head of the corner is the same as the chief cornerstone. That designates Him above regular stones, brother, and thus defining Him as the Rock that the church was and is built on.

Rock is not deity it’s a description of character or properties of, just as Jesus uses the world stone.

I reckon I will have to post scripture and not just a link to a list of scripture proving rock refers to deity in scripture.

Deuteronomy 32:4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he....15But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation....18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee....37And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

2 Samuel 22:3The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence....32For who is God, save the Lord? and who is a rock, save our God?....47 The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

2 Samuel 23:3The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

Psalm 18:2The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower....31For who is God save the Lord? or who is a rock save our God?...The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

There is more, but I hope you can see with His help that God would never use Rock to identify with any mortal in scripture. Rock refers to only God..

epostle1 · May 17, 2017

JesusIsFaithful said:
Only God can cause the increase. I see what He meant in His words since scripture cannot go against scripture.
Your reference is left out of the quote box so readers can read it below.
Joh_1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
That is correct.
Again your reference is left out of the quot box for readers to read.
Mar_12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
The head of the corner is the same as the chief cornerstone. That designates Him above regular stones, brother, and thus defining Him as the Rock that the church was and is built on.
I reckon I will have to post scripture and not just a link to a list of scripture proving rock refers to deity in scripture.
Deuteronomy 32:4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he....15But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation....18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee....37And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
2 Samuel 22:3The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence....32For who is God, save the Lord? and who is a rock, save our God?....47 The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

2 Samuel 23:3The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
Psalm 18:2The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower....31For who is God save the Lord? or who is a rock save our God?...The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

There is more, but I hope you can see with His help that God would never use Rock to identify with any mortal in scripture. Rock refers to only God..

What do you think "Peter" means? Did Jesus change Simon bar Jonah's name to Peter or didn't He? Are you suggesting Jesus hasn't the authority to change Simon bar Jonah's name to Rock because the word "rock" has other uses in scripture?
We know that God is called rock, but that doesn't prove Jesus wrong when He gave Simon bar Jonah a new name.

epostle1 · May 17, 2017

JesusIsFaithful said:
Satanism in the Vatican

This is hate propaganda. An authority mentioned in the site is Malachi Martin, regarded by many as a heretic. You should find sites that don't use slander as a marketing tool.

mjrhealth · May 18, 2017

Mungo said:
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" A direct question to them. Only one person answers him.
16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Peter who replies and defines who Jesus is, a definition we still use today.

17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Jesus commends Peter for his answer and blesses him. Note that Peter is the only one to reply and as a direct revelation from the Father.

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,…..
Now Jesus continues to address Peter and in return defines who Peter is. He is Rock, and furthermore the rock on which Jesus will build his Church.

Well at least Mungo to the time to put it all in context. So what is this rock?? Well it is revelation, there is a whole book in teh bible called, guess what "revealtion". What do you think it was all about?? Jesus building His church on a man. lok what Adam did. Jesssh dont you think God can learn, cant say mistakes, God doesnt make mistakes.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

This is what we are offered but denied by the religious.

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

WHo needs this when you have men to teach you???

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

But ill put this to you

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Amo 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

Than what will you do, when you find your lamps are dry because you would not Give Him teh time of day.

epostle1 · May 18, 2017

W.F. Albright (Protestant) and C.S. Mann
“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence…The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence.” (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

R.T. France (Anglican)
“Jesus now sums up Peter's significance in a name, Peter . . . It describes not so much Peter's character (he did not prove to be 'rock-like' in terms of stability or reliability), but his function, as the foundation-stone of Jesus' church. The feminine word for 'rock', 'petra', is necessarily changed to the masculine 'petros' (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form 'kepha' would occur in both places). It is only Protestant overreaction to the Catholic claim . . . that what is here said of Peter applies also to the later bishops of Rome, that has led some to claim that the 'rock' here is not Peter at all but the faith which he has just confessed. "The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied. . . Peter is to be the foundation-stone of Jesus' new community . . . which will last forever.” (Tyndale New Testament Commentaries,
[Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985], vol. 1: Matthew, 254, 256)

Donald Hagner (Contemporary Evangelical)
"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Catholics to justify the papacy"
(Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

Herman Ridderbos (Contemporary Dutch Reformed)
"It is well known that the Greek word petra translated ‘rock’ here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (‘Peter’) to petra is that petra was the normal word for ‘rock.’ . . . There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that he was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words ‘on this rock [petra]’ indeed refer to Peter" [Bible Student’s Commentary: Matthew, 303].

For the Protestant Reformers to rationalize breaking away from what was universally acknowledged in their culture as the Christian Church, it was necessary for them to deny the Catholic Church’s authority. To maintain their positions, they were forced to portray it as a kind of "anti-Church" that was unjustly claiming the prerogatives of Christ’s true (but invisible) Church.

Their chief target was, of course, the pope. To justify breaking away from the successor of Peter, they had to undercut the Petrine office itself. They were forced to deny the plain reading of Matthew 16:18—that Jesus made Peter the rock on which he would build his Church.

More recent Protestants have been able to back away from the position that early Protestants felt forced to make and have been able to admit that Peter is, indeed, the rock. It remains to be seen whether they will start drawing the necessary inferences from this fact.

mjrhealth · May 18, 2017

kepha31 said:
necessary for them to deny the Catholic Church’s authority

That was only because teh catholic church usurped its authority, not just form Jesus but even teh romans themselves. But even teh "protestants" could see how removed fromn "biblical" teaching teh "church" had become that the ycould bear it no longer, They are the children of your church and just as corrupt.;

kepha31 said:
Peter is, indeed, the rock.

Peter denied Jesus 3 times, he was no rock, according to you he denied Jesus 4 times,

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

So seems Jesus has double standrads according to you, But God had already made it clear

1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

See you have rejected Christ teh King that was given even to us to rule and rein over us. Your choice not His.

Mungo · May 18, 2017

JesusIsFaithful said:
There is more, but I hope you can see with His help that God would never use Rock to identify with any mortal in scripture. Rock refers to only God..

"Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the Lord; look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were digged. Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him and made him many." (Is 51:1-2)

" the rock from which you were hewn " is Abraham.

Jesus called Simon "Kephas" (transliterated Cephas in Greek) which is Aramaic for Rock - a big one. It's right there in the Bible - Jn 1:42

Mungo · May 18, 2017

JesusIsFaithful said:
Not so.

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So it is an assumption that the loosing and the binding was only given to Peter when there were other disciples in the place.

.

I didn't say that that the binding and loosing was given only to Peter. Please read what is written.

I said "Peter is the only apostle given the keys, and the only apostles singularly given the power to bind and loose."

Note the word I have emboldened -singularly. The others were given the power of binding and loosing collectively.

JesusIsFaithful · May 18, 2017

kepha31 said:
As it has been pointed out, the Greek word for stone is lithos,which not found in Matthew.

It doesn't matter. John 1:42 defines plainly what Peter means; a stone; not rock.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

There are multiple metaphors for Christ and the Church. Jesus is the builder who builds His Church on the Rock of Peter. Peter doesn't build anything independently.

Matthew 21:42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Ephesians 2:20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Thanks to Jesus Christ, there is no doubt in my mind that Jesus was referring to the revelation that Peter had given whereby Jesus is the Rock that the gates of hell shall not prevail against.

And the keys to loosing and binding is not solely given to Peter when the other disciples were present with Peter for which Jesus said I I say unto thee..." as well as this verse in Matthew 18th chapter.

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The keys to loosing and binding is given to every believer as that power exists in prayer to God through Jesus Christ.

Jesus spoke Aramiac, Greek is a later translation. The original language Jesus spoke is more forceful, and it doesn't have constructive pronouns and grammatical problems found in the Greek. "You are Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my Church." That's why you cannot accept the language Jesus spoke. A non sequitur. Rock has numerous meanings in scripture. Jesus is the rock does not mean Peter is not the rock (in a different sense),that's false dichotomous thinking and it's unbiblical. Proper biblical thinking is both/and, not either/or.
Matt. 16:17-19

But as the passions of the Reformation era have cooled, and Protestant scholars have taken a more dispassionate look at this text, they have come to agree more and more that Jesus was referring to Peter himself as the rock. Of course, they disagree with the Catholic interpretation of what this means, but many now agree that the Catholic explanation of the grammar of the text is correct.x

The following quotations, all of which are from Protestant Bible scholars, are taken from the book Jesus, Peter & the Keys: a Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy (Scott Butler et al., (Santa Barbara, CA: Queenship Publishing), 1996).

William Hendriksen Member of the Reformed Christian Church, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary says Peter is the Rock

Gerhard Maier Leading conservative evangelical Lutheran theologian says Peter is the Rock.

Donald A. Carson III Baptist and Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Seminary says Peter is the Rock

John Peter Lange German Protestant scholar says Peter is the Rock

John A. Broadus Baptist author says Peter is the Rock

J. Knox Chamblin Presbyterian and New Testament Professor, Reformed Theological Seminary says Peter is the Rock

Craig L. Blomberg Baptist and Professor of New Testament, Denver Seminary says Peter is the Rock

David Hill Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Department of Biblical Studies, University of Sheffield, England says Peter is the Rock

Suzanne de Dietrich Presbyterian theologian says Peter is the Rock

Donald A. Hagner Fuller Theological Seminary says Peter is the Rock

It doesn't matter how much end round you run to make Peter the rock with other resources and men of degrees, the scripture testifies to Who Jesus meant in being the Rock that the Church was built upon as the head of the corner and the chief cornerstone means the rock from which the church is built FROM.

JesusIsFaithful · May 18, 2017

kepha31 said:
What do you think "Peter" means? Did Jesus change Simon bar Jonah's name to Peter or didn't He? Are you suggesting Jesus hasn't the authority to change Simon bar Jonah's name to Rock because the word "rock" has other uses in scripture?
We know that God is called rock, but that doesn't prove Jesus wrong when He gave Simon bar Jonah a new name.

You have to take the title rock with all that is given to it; and that was about how the gates of hell shall not prevail against. That is not Peter.

And the loosing and the binding is not just given to Peter but His disciples were present too as He repeats it again in Matthew 18:18-20 that all believers has this loosing and binding by route of prayer, BECAUSE Jesus Christ is in them.

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

JesusIsFaithful · May 18, 2017

kepha31 said:
This is hate propaganda. An authority mentioned in the site is Malachi Martin, regarded by many as a heretic. You should find sites that don't use slander as a marketing tool.

It may be so. I can give room for doubt to the legitimacy of the site, but I have heard something about this from Catholic sources.

"In a book of memoirs released in February, the noted Italian exorcist Fr. Gabriele Amorth affirmed that "Yes, also in the Vatican there are members of Satanic sects." " ~ quoted from link below.

Spanish Exorcist Addresses Claims of Satanic Influence in Vatican - Europe - International - News - Catholic Online

Anyway, it certainly does not hold up the appearance as the Church at Rome, the Vatican, is something the gates of hell shall not prevail against. So Peter is not the rock Jesus was talking about since the whole claim of the RCC is being built on Peter being that rock.

JesusIsFaithful · May 18, 2017

Mungo said:
"Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the Lord; look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were digged. Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him and made him many." (Is 51:1-2)

" the rock from which you were hewn " is Abraham.

Jesus called Simon "Kephas" (transliterated Cephas in Greek) which is Aramaic for Rock - a big one. It's right there in the Bible - Jn 1:42

Thank you for sharing, but if I may offer a different reading and a suggestion. Try not to read that with the perception that Jesus was talking about Peter being the rock that the church would be built on that the gates of hell shall not prevail against. Read this again...

"Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the Lord; look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were digged. Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him and made him many." (Is 51:1-2)

They knew they were descendents of Abraham, but they were to look at Abraham as one whom God called him and blessed him and made him many; therefore Israel were to look to God as their rock from which they had come from.

Read this in the King James Bible in how we are to apply those words to mean who we are to look to.

Isaiah 51:1Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.3 For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

So Abraham & Sarah was not the rock to look to; but to the Lord that made Abraham the nation of Israel.

JesusIsFaithful · May 18, 2017

Mungo said:
I didn't say that that the binding and loosing was given only to Peter. Please read what is written.

I said "Peter is the only apostle given the keys, and the only apostles singularly given the power to bind and loose."

Note the word I have emboldened -singularly. The others were given the power of binding and loosing collectively.

Sorry for misreading you, but somehow, it still comes across that way.

Do entertain the possibility that the keys to the kingdom was not being given to Peter when the disciples were also in the room when Jesus had said this. Renaming Peter can be symbolic of when he becomes a new creature ( thus saved ) after His ascension, the power to loose & bind is given to every believer and not just to Peter & the disciples that Jesus was talking to when asking them "Who say ye that I am?" Note how this event ended when he addressed all His disciples.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

It all depends on a point of view that Jesus was addressing every one and just because He took that moment to rename Simon as Peter, it did not mean He continued to speak only to Peter but to all on the revelation that the Father had given through Simon.

Peter Was Never The Rock

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