Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

[epostle1]

Your catholic interpretations don't interest me. I don't read them.

TRANSLATION:

I don't like the Scriptural definition of an idol because it doesn't line up with my inventions.
My Romans 1:23 argument was refuted by straight Scripture, with no interpretations, but I'll claim "Catholic interpretation" because it looks impressive.
​

Did I say something about the ego being a false idol?

 

[Job]

Did I say something about the ego being a false idol?

If that's true you better check yours.

 

[epostle1]

If that's true you better check yours.

Misrepresentation is your idol, and history is your enemy.

The earliest known image of the Virgin Mary independent of the Magi episode , is a fresco dated about 150 CE in the Catacomb of Priscilla on the Via Salaria in Rome that shows her nursing the infant Jesus on her lap. Of course, you have nothing to do with the Christians of 150 AD.​

 

[FHII]

I don't know statues but they had images.

Romans 1
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.


An image of a man who is supposed to represent the image the incorruptible God. You seriously don't know who that is?

o

Pray. Read first.

 

[FHII]

Study that chapter. Pray first.

Alright fine. God still said don't make them at all. He didn't say don't make them for worship but otherwise its ok.

 

[Job]

Pray. Read first.

I get it.

You have a good one.

 

[Job]

The earliest known image of the Virgin Mary independent of the Magi episode , is a fresco dated about 150 CE in the Catacomb of Priscilla on the Via Salaria in Rome that shows her nursing the infant Jesus on her lap. Of course, you have nothing to do with the Christians of 150 AD.​

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I've posted. Other than you guys asking it to do things for you.

 

[FHII]

I get it.

You have a good one.

I like you Job. .... Just can't suoport you on this one. They say they aren't praying to a statue... I take their word for it. It just seems foolish to tell someone what they believe and do when they say they don't. Even if you are right you aren't going to win that arguement.

 

[epostle1]

WHAT ARE THE ROMAN CATACOMBS?

The catacombs are underground tunnels that were forged out of soft rock. They are long, marrow winding corridors. The dead were buried in the walls on either side. From time to time, going through these corridors, one comes to a wider space like a room. In these rooms the Christians would gather for the sacrifice of the Mass so as to worship free from the pagan’s persecutions.

Burial in the catacombs stopped when the barbarians plundered Rome. The popes removed the relics of the saints and martyrs from the catacombs. The catacombs, once abandoned, were gradually forgotten and not discovered again until the end of the sixteenth century. Most famous of the catacombs is that of St. Callistus, where many of the popes were buried after they were martyred for the faith.

HOW THE CATACOMBS BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUE CATHOLIC FAITH TODAY

An authentic Catholic catechism, containing to true Catholic teachings, could be composed from the pictures and inscriptions on the tombs and walls of ancient catacombs of the first three centuries. Pictures, medals, and inscriptions in the catacombs identify the faith of the early Christians with the Catholic faith.

The catacombs prove that the first Christians believed that Jesus Christ is true God and true Man. They also believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the holy Eucharist, the divine institution of the papacy, the dignity of the mother of God, the intercession of the saints, purgatory, prayers for the deceased.

The emblem of the fish, ichthys, was frequently used in the catacombs. It is a symbol of the Lord Jesus, for the Greek word ichthys means “fish” and its letters are the initials for “Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior.” When Christians spoke of “receiving the fish”, they meant to receive Jesus in Holy communion.

Frequently, pictures of our Savior in the catacombs reveal him as the Good Shepherd., carrying the lost sheep on his shoulders. This is the ancient biblical form which reveals the same message as our modern devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. A number of people are sitting around a table on which is bread and fish.

Death and resurrection were often in the minds of the early Christians, as indicated by the pictures of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, Daniel in the lions’ den, and the raising of Lazarus. Their faith in resurrection and eternal life gave them courage in facing death under persecution. There is also the famous account of Tarsicius being martyred as he took the holy Eucharist, the bread of life, to Christian prisoners.

The eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass was offered in the catacombs on the altars under which rested the bodies of martyrs. Catholic altars even today have “altar stones” in which the relics of saints and martyrs were placed by bishops when they consecrated the altar stones.

A Catechism of the Catholic Church, by Robert J. Fox. pgs. 20, 21

The art of the catacombs is also a symbolic art in the sense that some concepts which are difficult to express are represented in a simple way. To indicate Christ a fish is depicted; to signify the peace of heaven a dove is represented; to express firmness of faith an anchor is drawn. On the closing slabs of the loculi, symbols with different meanings are often engraved. In some cases, a tool is depicted which indicates the dead person’s trade in life. Some symbols, such as glasses, loaves of bread and amphorae, allude to the funeral meals consumed in honor of the deceased, the so-called refrigeria. Most of the symbols refer to eternal salvation, such as the dove, the palm, the peacock, the phoenix and the lamb.
The Christian Catacombs

 

[Job]

I like you Job. .... Just can't suoport you on this one.

That's ok. I sometimes wonder why I do this too.

 

[Wormwood]

Brothers and sisters, we all love Jesus here. Who is any of us to cast judgment on the other? If you are convinced in your own mind that your worship is honorable to Jesus Christ and you believe you trust him alone for your salvation then you are acting in faith. Let us all give one another the grace that we desire God to grant us when we stand before him. To be sure, all of us are in error in various areas. Yet it seems to me that all here love Jesus and believe he died for sinners who call upon him. I hope we can all learn to love the other as Jesus loves them. While we were sinners, loved us and Christ died for us. How much more should we love those that love him, albeit imperfectly? How will unbelievers ever come to know the incomparable love of Christ if we do not have even an ounce of it in our own hearts toward others who call on Jesus Christ? We do not have to agree with each other, but that does not mean we should be mean-spirited and spiteful toward one another. We can discuss and disagree in love. Jesus loves each of you beyond our wildest imagination.

 

[epostle1]

Alright fine. God still said don't make them at all.

No, He did not. God commanded the use of various statuary in the Temple, and commanded Moses to make a bronze serpent. God said not to make false gods and worship them, He didn't forbid the making of images per se.

He didn't say don't make them for worship but otherwise its ok.

You still cannot make the distinction between proper use of statuary and idolatry. Scripture makes a distinction, Protestant iconoclasts are unable to. Lumping all statuary together as all bad is unbiblical. The charge of statue worship is BASELESS and STUPID. A devotional aid is no more an idol than a Christian CD with an image of the artist on the cover, and the mental images the music brings to mind.
Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

 

[tabletalk]

I like you Job. .... Just can't suoport you on this one. They say they aren't praying to a statue... I take their word for it. It just seems foolish to tell someone what they believe and do when they say they don't. Even if you are right you aren't going to win that arguement.

But, do you need an image of the Lord Jesus in front of you to pray to Him?
I don't.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
It seems to take more faith to pray without an image in front of me. Weak faith demands an image.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Dude, you're asking inanimate objects to pray for you.
Show me where this is addressed in scripture and where God makes allowances for it.

Show me one single shred of evidence that the Catholic Church teaches us to pray to statues.
Either your really mentally deficient - or you're just a sinful guy who likes to spread lies.
Take your pick . . .

Oh - and you're STILL running away from my questions:
a. Was Moses an idol worshipper when he made 2 golden cherubim and put them on top of the ark??
b. How about when he made a bronze serpent and placed it on a pole so that the sick would be healed??

Ho old are you?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who is it? If you're so sure of yourself, why are you reluctant to name the image?

Name what image??

Anyway - really - how old are you.
Judging by your inability to converse intelligently - my guess is that you're about 15.

Am i in the neighborhood?

 

[BreadOfLife]

But, do you need an image of the Lord Jesus in front of you to pray to Him?
I don't.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
It seems to take more faith to pray without an image in front of me. Weak faith demands an image.

Really??
Was Mosesweak??
Was GOD weak??

a. Was Moses a "weak" idol worshiper when he made 2 golden cherubim and put them on top of the ark??
b. How about when he made a bronze serpent and placed it on a pole so that the sick would be healed?? Was that "weak"??

GOD Himself commanded him to create these graven images.
Why did He do that??

 

[Job]

Show me one single shred of evidence that the Catholic Church....

I could show all kinds of things your catholic cult has kept secret from you. Or maybe you do know and are accepting of these catholic traditions. Would you like me to post some of that evidence?

Oh - and you're STILL running away from my questions:
a. Was Moses an idol worshipper when he made 2 golden cherubim and put them on top of the ark??

What were the names of those 2 cherubim? And were these cherubim made for the specific purpose of relaying messages to God? ie. praying for individuals. If Moses were using those cherubim the way catholics use their images, then yes, Moses was an idolater.

b. How about when he made a bronze serpent and placed it on a pole so that the sick would be healed?? Was that "weak"??

How about God having that serpent destroyed because it had become an object of worship.

2 Kings 18
4 He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.


Nothing in scripture allows for the use of images in worship. I can show you verse after verse condemning these images. You can't show me one that makes allowances for them. Your catholic traditions do not trump the scriptures.

Ho old are you?

Old enough to know how to spell or at least smart enough to use spellcheck.

i

 

[Job]

GOD Himself commanded him to create these graven images.
Why did He do that??

Show us where He commanded these images be used in worship.

 

[Marymog]

Is it lying if I'm using your own words to back my claim?

Here's what you said.

If they're asking Mary to pray for them, they must believe that chunk of rock or that piece of canvas is able to hear them and that it is in fact Mary.

There's a word for this kind of behavior. Care to guess what it is?
j

Hola Job,

I am trying to figure out if your being serious or just pushing breadoflife's buttons because you know he/she will give a vigorous response?

I want to take you serious but I don't think you really believe that people who look at a picture or a statue of a person when they pray think they are really praying to that picture/statue.

Do you really think that those people think that the "chunk of rock or piece of canvas" can hear them?

Curious Mary

 

[Job]

Name what image??

You should really research the underbelly of your church. I know for a fact you know very little about your churches history and practices. If you did, you wouldn't call yourself a catholic.