Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

[FHII]

Yes I realize that. They're talking to an inanimate object. They're asking that object to pray for them. The scriptures don't allow for this kind of behavior. It's that simple.

Seems to me he said the exact oppsite, Job. I mean, I think its silly.... But he said he wasn't praying to the object.

 

[Job]

So if you have silk flowers, animal figurines, plastic flamingoes.... You are guilty. Pictures are graven images.
So if you have a picture of your mom, dad, children.... Even a drivers license... You are guilty.

There's a difference and here it is.

Deuteronomy 4
19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.


Do you see it?

If you view your lawn ornaments and family photos as religious deities, you are guilty. But realistically, how many people do that?

 

[Job]

Seems to me he said the exact oppsite, Job. I mean, I think its silly.... But he said he wasn't praying to the object.

Asking the object to pray for him is just as bad.....don't you think?

 

[Helen]

I keep on reading all this, but I still can't see where in scripture God tells His people to pray to anyone, be they in heaven or anywhere else!! If I can pray to any of those who died a natural death and went to 'heaven'....then I can pray to my own dad, or my own uncles, grandad...
We are only even told to pray to " Our Father"....anything other than that, is man-made.

==

 

[Job]

My point is that if it is wrong its covered by grace.

Not continual disobedience. Romans chapter 1 has that covered. There's also a mention of that infamous image of Jesus. Paul calls it corruptible.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That wasn't the point of the passage. Read it again and then answer my question.
What image is Paul calling corruptible?

It is totally irrelevant because this is NOT was is taking place when I ask Mary to pray for me.
You are very confused here . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I keep on reading all this, but I still can't see where in scripture God tells His people to pray to anyone, be they in heaven or anywhere else!! If I can pray to any of those who died a natural death and went to 'heaven'....then I can pray to my own dad, or my own uncles, grandad...
We are only even told to pray to " Our Father"....anything other than that, is man-made.

To "Pray" in its simplest definition simply means to "ASK", to "SUPPLICATE".
"Pray" doesn't always mean "worship."

YOU just prayed to us to answer your questions.
However, I know the difference between a request and worship - even though you and Job don't.

Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

 

[Job]

It is totally irrelevant because this is NOT was is taking place when I ask Mary to pray for me.
You are very confused here . . .

But it's not irrelevant. Those images are used for the same purpose are they not?

So who is it? Can you tell us?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not continual disobedience. Romans chapter 1 has that covered. There's also a mention of that infamous image of Jesus. Paul calls it corruptible.

YOU never answered the questions about Moses.
The graven images that God commanded him to create were also corruptible:

a. Was Moses an idol worshipper when he made 2 golden cherubim and put them on top of the ark??
b. How about when he made a bronze serpent and placed it on a pole so that the sick would be healed??
GOD Himself commanded him to create these graven images.

Is GOD a hypocrite -or do YOU simply have an inability to understand what is going on in these passages??

 

[FHII]

Asking the object to pray for him is just as bad.....don't you think?

But this not what they are saying. They aren't asking a statue of Mary to pray for them, they are asking Mary to. Sure, I think that's fruitless... But still its not what they are saying.

 

[Job]

However, I know the difference between a request and worship - even though you and Job don't.

Dude, you're asking inanimate objects to pray for you.

Show me where this is addressed in scripture and where God makes allowances for it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

But it's not irrelevant. Those images are used for the same purpose are they not?
So who is it? Can you tell us?

No, they're not - and that's what you don't seem to be able to grasp.
Like I said - I taught a room full of 3rd graders who understood right away - but YOU don't seem to have the capacity to understand.

The verses you presented about corruptible matter are completely irrelevant.

 

[BreadOfLife]

But it's not irrelevant. Those images are used for the same purpose are they not?

So who is it? Can you tell us?

Ho old are you, Job??
Just curious.

 

[Job]

Ho old are you, Job??
Just curious.

Who is it? If you're so sure of yourself, why are you reluctant to name the image?

 

[FHII]

Not continual disobedience. Romans chapter 1 has that covered. There's also a mention of that infamous image of Jesus. Paul calls it corruptible.

Oh really? Were they worshipping statues of Jesus in 55 AD? Was this statue a creature inatead of the creator?

Continued disobedience. Ok... Lets dive into that. Are you going to circle those few verses in Romans 1 and ignore the rest of the letter? What about Romans 5 which say where sin abounded grace did much more abound? And yes you can bring up any quote from the sixth chapter and it still won't matter IF you died with Him.

 

[FHII]

There's a difference and here it is.

Deuteronomy 4
19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.


Do you see it?

If you view your lawn ornaments and family photos as religious deities, you are guilty. But realistically, how many people do that?

That verse is talking about astrology, not about the plastic Mary statue on the dashboard of a car.

No, I don't see it.

 

[epostle1]

That wasn't the point of the passage. Read it again and then answer my question.

Making God into a corruptable image, and worshiping it as a god. No statue that I know of is made to be God or are they worshiped as God. Your iconoclastic psychosis is reading into the passage what isn't there.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Scripture is very specific about what constitutes an idol. It is the image of a creature (bird or animal) that is worshipped as a god. One has to look at when the Law was given to the people to find the clue as to God's original meaning. The Hebrew had been rescued from Egypt by God. If you look closely at the ten plagues for instance you can see that each plague represented the destruction of the gods of Egypt. By bringing the plagues upon Egypt God was showing that He was mightier than any human understanding of a god.

The Hebrew had been affected by these gods in Egypt and in their hearts they wanted to continue to follow these gods. The history of Israel is full of examples of the apostasy of Israel as it fell into this form of idol worship and was punished for doing so. The Golden Calf incident was an attempt by the Hebrew to worship the false gods that they had left behind in Egypt. Before the Golden Calf incident the Hebrew did not have to offer animal sacrifices, yet after that incident they had to do so. Why? Because God wanted to make sure that the Israelites were forced to renounce animal worship.

The false idols that we have today are not the statues of Jesus and Mary that one sees in a Church. For starters, Mary was truly a human person and the early Christians depicted both Mary and Jesus in their human image, as they saw them. The idols of paganism, on the other hand were idols that come from the imagination of the human mind. What we are confronted with today are the images of pop stars, movie stars, consumerism, materialism, flag worship, of sport stars, worship of the body. Where is God in any of these images? These are the false gods of today. It is the false god called "ego" that is in conflict with the real image of God.

Moving down a few verses from Romans 1:23

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
THIS IS THE CORRUPTIBLE MAN THAT PAUL IS TALKING ABOUT , NOT A STATUE.

 

[Job]

Oh really? Were they worshipping statues of Jesus in 55 AD? Was this statue a creature inatead of the creator?

I don't know statues but they had images.

Romans 1
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.


An image of a man who is supposed to represent the image the incorruptible God. You seriously don't know who that is?

o

 

[Job]

Making God into a corruptable image, and worshiping it as a god. No statue that I know of is made to be God or are they worshiped as God. Your iconoclastic psychosis is reading into the passage what isn't there.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Scripture is very specific about what constitutes an idol. It is the image of a creature (bird or animal) that is worshipped as a god. One has to look at when the Law was given to the people to find the clue as to God's original meaning. The Hebrew had been rescued from Egypt by God. If you look closely at the ten plagues for instance you can see that each plague represented the destruction of the gods of Egypt. By bringing the plagues upon Egypt God was showing that He was mightier than any human understanding of a god.

The Hebrew had been affected by these gods in Egypt and in their hearts they wanted to continue to follow these gods. The history of Israel is full of examples of the apostasy of Israel as it fell into this form of idol worship and was punished for doing so. The Golden Calf incident was an attempt by the Hebrew to worship the false gods that they had left behind in Egypt. Before the Golden Calf incident the Hebrew did not have to offer animal sacrifices, yet after that incident they had to do so. Why? Because God wanted to make sure that the Israelites were forced to renounce animal worship.

The false idols that we have today are not the statues of Jesus and Mary that one sees in a Church. For starters, Mary was truly a human person and the early Christians depicted both Mary and Jesus in their human image, as they saw them. The idols of paganism, on the other hand were idols that come from the imagination of the human mind. What we are confronted with today are the images of pop stars, movie stars, consumerism, materialism, flag worship, of sport stars, worship of the body. Where is God in any of these images? These are the false gods of today. It is the false god called "ego" that is in conflict with the real image of God.

Moving down a few verses from Romans 1:23

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
THIS IS THE CORRUPTIBLE MAN THAT PAUL IS TALKING ABOUT , NOT A STATUE.

Your catholic interpretations don't interest me. I don't read them.

 

[Job]

That verse is talking about astrology, not about the plastic Mary statue on the dashboard of a car.

No, I don't see it.

Study that chapter. Pray first.