Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

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epostle1

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His false Calvinistic iconoclasm has been drilled into his brain.

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.

That sums up Job: misunderstanding or ignorance. In his cas it's both.

Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!

I'm wondering if Job has been infected by Loraine Boettner's lies.

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: Exodus 25:18–20.
Job should correct God.

1 Chronicles 28:18–19 David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Job should correct David.

Ezekiel 41:17–18
According to Job, Ezekiel is an idolatror.

Numbers 21:8–9
According to Job, Moses worshiped a bronze serpent.

Exodus 33:9-11 2 Chronicles 7:1-4
According to Job's perverse thinking, they were worshiping a cloud and fire. I say they were worshiping God *through* those images. If not, then the Bible wouldn't have presented these things positively. They would have been condemned as idolatry. But they were not. Does Job?

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate.

According to Job, recall = worship. ...misunderstanding and ignorance.

In all my years, I've never seen any Catholic worship a statue or painting. The charge is part of anti-Catholic bigotry and "Bible Christian" hate.

Idolatry (biblically defined) is a matter of the heart. It isn't just a matter of plaster and wood. Idolatry requires one to be substituting any created thing for God Himself. Using something as a visual or devotional aid is not *necessarily* or always doing that. One is worshiping God by means of the visual aid.

For a crucifix (for example) to be "idolatry" (as Job may hold) one would have to believe the hyper-ridiculous thing that a piece of plaster is

1) actually God, or a god;
and
2) meant to replace the one true God as a substitute (an idol).

I submit that virtually no Christian in the history of the world who knows ANYTHING about the faith has ever done such a silly thing. They're obviously worshiping Jesus (God) by means of the visual aid.

Notice how Job avoids the biblical definition of an idol.

No, they're asking the statues to pray for them. They're talking to false images of Mary and asking that she pray for them. They're having conversations with rocks and canvas believing the image they're addressing is actually Mary. They do the same with false images of Jesus and the Apostles.
This is the most idiotic statement I have seen in some time.

Bashing Alphonsus Liguori is another favorite pastime for ignorant hateful bigots.
St. Alphonsus de Liguori: Mary-Worshiper & Idolater?

Job may deny being a Calvinist, but he sure follows his teachings. Calvin was a psychotic iconoclast that infected much of Protestantism.

images_q_tbn_ANd9_Gc_TWDY0_IDOKZ8_T22d_JSQWt78_Vn0o_MGz.jpg

:eek:An "idol" according to Job
of John Calvin
who destroyed statues, priceless works of art,
organs, stained glass, and just about any physical object.

John Calvin: Capital Punishment for "Heretics" (Anabaptists, Etc.)
 
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epostle1

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In a recent Times Literary Supplement, David Motadel reviewed James Noyes’s 2013 book The Politics of Iconoclasm: Religion, Violence and the Culture of Image-Breaking in Christianity and Islam. The review, and the associated scholarship, raises important questions about how we conceive of the Reformation, how we teach it, and, significantly, how we will commemorate the 500th anniversary of the event in 2017.

From false idols and graven images to the tombs of kings and the shrines of capitalism, the targeted destruction of cities, sacred sites and artifacts for religious, political or nationalistic reasons is central to our cultural legacy. This book examines the different traditions of image-breaking in Christianity and Islam as well as their development into nominally secular movements and paints a vivid, scholarly picture of a culture of destruction encompassing Protestantism, Wahhabism, and Nationalism. Beginning with a comparative account of Calvinist Geneva and Wahhabi Mecca, The Politics of Iconoclasm explores the religious and political agendas behind acts of image-breaking and their relation to nationhood and state-building. From sixteenth-century Geneva to urban developments in Mecca today, The Politics of Iconoclasm explores the history of image-breaking, the culture of violence and its paradoxical roots in the desire for renewal. Examining these dynamics of nationhood, technology, destruction and memory, a historical journey is described in which the temple is razed and replaced by the machine.

Job has more in common with Islam that he is willing to admit.
 

Job

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Still with me, sparky?
You shouldn't call people names. It gives people a bad impression of you. I do understand your frustration, but name calling isn't the way to go. No, it didn't bother me, I'm used to it.

I'll make is as simplistic as I can for a person with your limited abilities:
A person asks Mary or another saint in Heaven to pray FOR them
That's called necromancy. Communicating with the dead. Strictly forbidden in the scriptures.

Let's see if you can come up with some mature answers this time . . .
There's not much more I can say on the subject. You said it all for me. People are asking statues and paintings to approach the Lord on their behalf. They're asking inanimate objects to pray for them. Nothing in scripture allows for such behavior. It actually condemns it.

k
 

FHII

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His false Calvinistic iconoclasm has been drilled into his brain.

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.

That sums up Job: misunderstanding or ignorance. In his cas it's both.

Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!

I'm wondering if Job has been infected by Loraine Boettner's lies.

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: Exodus 25:18–20.
Job should correct God.

1 Chronicles 28:18–19 David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Job should correct David.

Ezekiel 41:17–18
According to Job, Ezekiel is an idolatror.

Numbers 21:8–9
According to Job, Moses worshiped a bronze serpent.

Exodus 33:9-11 2 Chronicles 7:1-4
According to Job's perverse thinking, they were worshiping a cloud and fire. I say they were worshiping God *through* those images. If not, then the Bible wouldn't have presented these things positively. They would have been condemned as idolatry. But they were not. Does Job?

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate.

According to Job, recall = worship. ...misunderstanding and ignorance.

In all my years, I've never seen any Catholic worship a statue or painting. The charge is part of anti-Catholic bigotry and "Bible Christian" hate.

Idolatry (biblically defined) is a matter of the heart. It isn't just a matter of plaster and wood. Idolatry requires one to be substituting any created thing for God Himself. Using something as a visual or devotional aid is not *necessarily* or always doing that. One is worshiping God by means of the visual aid.

For a crucifix (for example) to be "idolatry" (as Job may hold) one would have to believe the hyper-ridiculous thing that a piece of plaster is

1) actually God, or a god;
and
2) meant to replace the one true God as a substitute (an idol).

I submit that virtually no Christian in the history of the world who knows ANYTHING about the faith has ever done such a silly thing. They're obviously worshiping Jesus (God) by means of the visual aid.

Notice how Job avoids the biblical definition of an idol.

This is the most idiotic statement I have seen in some time.

Bashing Alphonsus Liguori is another favorite pastime for ignorant hateful bigots.
St. Alphonsus de Liguori: Mary-Worshiper & Idolater?

Job may deny being a Calvinist, but he sure follows his teachings. Calvin was a psychotic iconoclast that infected much of Protestantism.

images_q_tbn_ANd9_Gc_TWDY0_IDOKZ8_T22d_JSQWt78_Vn0o_MGz.jpg

:eek:An "idol" according to Job of John Calvin
who smashed all statuary.

John Calvin: Capital Punishment for "Heretics" (Anabaptists, Etc.)


Please always cite the works of others, Kelpha. You haven't broken any copywrite laws, but this work is not your own.

Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers
 

Job

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:eek:An "idol" according to Job of John Calvin
who smashed all statuary.
Do you have evidence of people asking that thing to approach God on their behalf? I have all kinds of evidence showing catholics talking to pictures and statues. You two even admitted to asking inanimate objects to pray for you.
 

epostle1

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You shouldn't call people names. It gives people a bad impression of you. I do understand your frustration, but name calling isn't the way to go. No, it didn't bother me, I'm used to it.
That's called necromancy. Communicating with the dead. Strictly forbidden in the scriptures.
There's not much more I can say on the subject. You said it all for me. People are asking statues and paintings to approach the Lord on their behalf. They're asking inanimate objects to pray for them. Nothing in scripture allows for such behavior. It actually condemns it.
k
The Church condemns it too. It's been posted several times, right from the catechism. Your blind prejudice prevents you from seeing it no matter how many times it's posted. You are re-inventing the wheel with this absurd argument.
 

BreadOfLife

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You shouldn't call people names. It gives people a bad impression of you. I do understand your frustration, but name calling isn't the way to go. No, it didn't bother me, I'm used to it.
Who called you a name??
I referred to you as "Sparky", which is a term of endearment, like "Buddy."

That's called necromancy. Communicating with the dead. Strictly forbidden in the scriptures.
You don't know your Bible very well - do you??

Necromancy is the OT prohibition from seeking oracles from the dead. In other words - to glean information FROM them.
Asking a saint in Heaven to pray for us is not seeking oracles . . .

There's not much more I can say on the subject. You said it all for me. People are asking statues and paintings to approach the Lord on their behalf. They're asking inanimate objects to pray for them. Nothing in scripture allows for such behavior. It actually condemns it.
And this is precisely why you are so gullible.
Your complete inability to grasp what I easily explained to my 3rd grade catechism class is astounding - for an adult . . .
 

epostle1

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Please always cite the works of others, Kelpha. You haven't broken any copywrite laws, but this work is not your own.

Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers
Thanks for providing the link, I forgot to post it. Do you have a rebuttal for the material in the link? There is more in it than what I posted. The Christian Taliban doesn't like it.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Do you have evidence of people asking that thing to approach God on their behalf? I have all kinds of evidence showing catholics talking to pictures and statues. You two even admitted to asking inanimate objects to pray for you.
I see how you completely failed to answer my questions in post #220.
Here they are again for your review:

1. When a soldier kisses his girlfriend's picture that he carries in his wallet - does that make the soldier an IDOLATOR because he kissed a graven image?

2. When a grieving person visits the grave site of their spouse and tells them how much they love and miss them - is THAT idolatry because they're talking to a headstone??


I eagerly await your response . . .
 

Job

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You don't know your Bible very well - do you??
How well do you know yours?

Romans 1
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.


What image is Paul calling corruptible?

k
 

BreadOfLife

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Job should correct God.

1 Chronicles 28:18–19 David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Job should correct David.

Ezekiel 41:17–18
According to Job, Ezekiel is an idolatror.

Numbers 21:8–9
According to Job, Moses worshiped a bronze serpent.

Exodus 33:9-11 2 Chronicles 7:1-4
According to Job's perverse thinking, they were worshiping a cloud and fire. I say they were worshiping God *through* those images. If not, then the Bible wouldn't have presented these things positively. They would have been condemned as idolatry. But they were not. Does Job?
Ummmm - after a few exchanges with Job - I don't think he has the capacity to respond to this sort if intelligent dialogue . . .
 

epostle1

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Do you have evidence of people asking that thing to approach God on their behalf?
No, and I have no evidence of any Catholic approaching any statue or painting approaching God on their behalf. Your premise is absurd.
I have all kinds of evidence showing catholics talking to pictures and statues.
Where? Hollywood movies? Even if what you say is true, they are "talking" to the person represented, not the object. But that is too abstract for your rationalistic mind. Do you despise all art, or just Christian art?
. You two even admitted to asking inanimate objects to pray for you.
Use the quote feature instead of making things up.
Why was a statue of John Calvin made?
 
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BreadOfLife

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How well do you know yours?

Romans 1
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

What image is Paul calling corruptible?k
Paul is talking about idolators, Einstein.

Was Moses an idol worshipper when he made 2 golden cherubim and put them on top of the ark??
How about when he made a bronze serpent and placed it on a pole so that the sick would be healed??
GOD Himself commanded him to create these graven images.

Is GOD a hypocrite -or do YOU simply have an inability to understand what is going on in these passages??
 

BreadOfLife

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Would ya'll like another video?
Actually - I would prefer an intelligent response - but I'm not holding my breath.

Hey - at least you've exposed your ignorance before all of the readers here . . .
 

epostle1

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Ummmm - after a few exchanges with Job - I don't think he has the capacity to respond to this sort if intelligent dialogue . . .
It's typical anti-Catholic methodology: jump from one inflammatory lie to another.
 

BreadOfLife

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It's typical anti-Catholic methodology: jump from one inflammatory lie to another.
I would have to add "ignorant" to that description.
I've debated SOME bright anti-Catholics, who would at least put up some sort of intelligible response as they were going down in flames.

Our friend Job here seems to be perfectly comfortable to wallow in ignorance . . .
 

FHII

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Thanks for providing the link, I forgot to post it. Do you have a rebuttal?
I didn't. Just give due honor and protect yourself from error. That's a general rule on why we should all cite references. But I do have some thoughts:

Personally I don't have any statues, pictures or even crosses of anything of the Christian faith. If you have say a statue or Mary or a picture of Jesus, how do you know thats what they looked like? I don't have a cross because it wasn't a good thing. It was necessary but his death was terrible. It was a Roman method of a torturous death.

I am not necessarily condemning those who do. Thats my preference and not worth harping on.

If I had to judge on the matter, in a strict legalistic way it is wrong. Just because God said it was ok for one thing doesn't make it mean you have permission in all circumstances. God said don't kill, then he later told the nation of Israel to wipe out whole nations. Women children and all their cattle. Yet, we don't cite that as permission to kill, do we?

BUT....

If you want to be that legalistic about it. Ok. God said do not make ANY image of anything on earth, in heaven or under the sea. Not just religious stuff...

So if you have silk flowers, animal figurines, plastic flamingoes.... You are guilty. Pictures are graven images. However they were created something dented the paper or canvas the ink or paint its on.

So if you have a picture of your mom, dad, children.... Even a drivers license... You are guilty.

I take you Catholics' word for it that you aren't worshipping a statue of Mary, but are using is as a symbol. Yea, frankly I am against praying to Mary. But Ive spoken about that before and its not my point. But id it any different than a prayer clothe (like Peter or Paul's apron)? Or clutching your Bible (instead of reading it) while in intense prayer? Or meditating while looking at a mustard seed?

Nope.

My point is that if it is wrong its covered by grace. And if you are going to harp on Catholics, you better have your own house in order.
 

Job

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Even if what you say is true, they are "talking" to the person represented, not the object.
Yes I realize that. They're talking to an inanimate object. They're asking that object to pray for them. The scriptures don't allow for this kind of behavior. It's that simple.