Mary,
Thank you so much for your response. However, you have judged me incorrectly with the words, 'I know there is no changing your mind'. This is false. Everything I post on this forum is subject to the Acts 17:11 (NIV) test: 'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true'.
Because I submit to this Acts 17:11 test, you have picked up something with the word 'until' that I find to be accurate and helpful. Thank you.
I don't believe I was 'twisting' Matt 1:25 with my understanding of 'until', but the example you gave 'I never drank alcohol
until the day I died....but I did after I died' is one view (but somewhat illogical). I could give the example of, 'I never shaved the whiskers from my face
until my teens'. By this I inferred that I continued shaving whiskers from my face after my teens. Your example was correct. So was mine. Context determines the meaning of 'until'.
This is an inflammatory comment, Mary:
I have a PhD in NT, but that doesn't make me superior as a theologian to the church fathers or you. However, your comment here commits the
appeal to ridicule fallacy.
Again, this is inflammatory:
That is a disgusting comparison that involves your disparaging comment about my sexual urges, about which you know nothing.
However, I'm not the only one who concludes that after Jesus birth, Mary and Joseph engaged in marital sexual relations. Let's look at 3 more leading Bible commentators on Matt 1:25.
The
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary supports the point you have made:
25. And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: and he called his name JESUS—The word "till" does not necessarily imply that they lived on a different footing afterwards (as will be evident from the use of the same word in 1Sa 15:35; 2Sa 6:23; Mt 12:20); nor does the word "first-born" decide the much-disputed question, whether Mary had any children to Joseph after the birth of Christ; for, as Lightfoot says, "The law, in speaking of the first-born, regarded not whether any were born after or no, but only that none were born before." (See on [1205]Mt 13:55, 56).
Albert Barnes' notes on this verse state,
Knew her not - The doctrine of the virginity of Mary before the birth of Jesus is a doctrine of the Scriptures, and is very important to be believed. But the Bible does not affirm that she had no children afterward. Indeed, all the accounts in the New Testament lead us to suppose that she did have them. See the notes at
Matthew 13:55-56. The language here evidently implies that she lived as the wife of Joseph after the birth of Jesus.
What do Matt 13:55-56 (NIV) state? '55 ‘Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?’
How does
Expositor's Greek Commentary interpret Matt 1:25?
Matthew 1:25. καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν … υἱόν: absolute habitual (note the imperfect) abstinence from marital intercourse, the sole purpose of the hastened marriage being to legitimise the child.—ἕως: not till then, and afterwards? Here comes in a quæstio vexata of theology. Patristic and catholic authors say: not till then and never at all, guarding the sacredness of the virgin’s womb. ἕως does not settle the question. It is easy to cite instances of its use as fixing a limit up to which a specified event did not occur, when as a matter of fact it did not occur at all. E.g.,
Genesis 8:7; the raven returned not till the waters were dried up; in fact, never returned (Schanz). But the presumption is all the other way in the case before us. Subsequent intercourse was the natural, if not the necessary, course of things. If the evangelist had felt as the Catholics do, he would have taken pains to prevent misunderstanding.—υἱόν: the extended reading (T. R.) is imported from
Luke 2:7, where there are no variants
Matt Slick of CARM provides a good explanation of how 'until' can have different understandings. See:
Mary's virginity and Matt. 1:25.
Thank you for correcting me on this one. I've given one understanding of 'until' and missed the other. I appreciate your bringing this to my attention. I have to agree with some of these commentators who state that whether Mary was a perpetual virgin or if she had children or no children to Joseph, has no impact on the church's major doctrines.
I urge you not to presume with your responses and not to be inflammatory in how you express your view.
Oz