It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[BreadOfLife]

Wow, trying to throw a guilt trip on me saying I hate catholicism because they all worship Mary.
It's sad to hear you speak this way.
Do you have any friends?

I have a lot of friend - and none of the lie as much as YOU do.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So, you don't believe ion the Trinity?
You don't believe in the Incarnation??
You don't believe in the Canon of Scripture?

Do you even know where the Canon of the New Testament came from??

Lol, I forget, which pope?
The one that was a homo?

 

[twinc]

My point is simple:

There is NO TEACHING in the Catholic Church.
Members DO WORSHIP Mary as a result of this.

what exactly is meant by the word worship compared to venerate and veneration - twinc

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely not.
It all ties in with Jesus's promise to the leaders of His Church at the Last Supper:
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Jesus promised that His Church couldn't teach incorrect doctrine because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Wrong.
This is a matter of discipline - NOT doctrine.

Priestly celibacy is also a matter of discipline that could theoretically change.
Don't just blurt something out because YOU believe it to be so. Check the sources.

You have an answer for everything.
It's a discipline and not a doctrine.
Why are so many Bishops upset by this letter?
Do they not understand that it's ONLY A DISCIPLINE?

Celibacy is not a doctrine. Correct.

The CC is trying to find a common ground with the Lutheran chuch, which is Protestant.

Catholic official response

 

[BreadOfLife]

Lol, I forget, which pope?
The one that was a homo?

Sooooo, you DON'T know - do you??
You don't know where the Canon of the NT came from and you call yourself a follower of Christ??

Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.

 

[twinc]

Lol, I forget, which pope?
The one that was a homo?

all Popes have been and are homo sapiens - lets have none of your monkey business here - twinc

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have an answer for everything.
It's a discipline and not a doctrine.
Why are so many Bishops upset by this letter?
Do they not understand that it's ONLY A DISCIPLINE?

Celibacy is not a doctrine. Correct.

The CC is trying to find a common ground with the Lutheran chuch, which is Protestant.

Catholic official response

Ummm, the Joint Declaration with the Lutheran Church on Justification is about 20 years old and came about during the Pontificate of John Paul II. I'm not sure what your point is here . . .

Also - 1 Pet. 3:15 commands me to always be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within me.

 

[GodsGrace]

what exactly is meant by the word worship compared to venerate and veneration - twinc

Only God can be worshipped.
Mary can be venerated.
The CCC explains this as devotion = veneration
Adoration = Worship

Paragraph 971 from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ummm, the Joint Declaration with the Lutheran Church on Justification is about 20 years old and came about during the Pontificate of John Paul II. I'm not sure what your point is here . . .

That the CC will become more protestant, as I stated previously.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That the CC will become more protestant, as I stated previously.

Have you bothered to READ the Joint Declaration??
The Catholic Church didn't acquiesce ONE point.

The Church's position is still the same.
The main thing that the Church stated was that if the term "Faith Alone" is to be used - it MUST be understood that faith includes works.

 

[twinc]

Only God can be worshipped.
Mary can be venerated.
The CCC explains this as devotion = veneration
Adoration = Worship

Paragraph 971 from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

exactly so what's the problem - who says Mary is worshipped - twinc

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,

Did St. Augustine get it wrong? Or are you getting it wrong?

Curious

Mary,

Again you have committed a Genetic Fallacy (the Fallacy of Origins). It is erroneous reasoning. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this.

As that link demonstrates, the Genetic Fallacy bases its claim for truth on the origin of the claim. Here you have asked if St Augustine got it wrong or did I get it wrong?

The logical form of this argument is:

1. The origin of the claim of Mary's perpetual virginity is presented - St Augustine or OzSpen;
2. Therefore the claim is true or false.

The fact that St Augustine taught the perpetual virginity of Mary, does not make the perpetual virginity the truth. That St Augustine taught this is irrelevant to the claim that the perpetual virginity is correct.

We need to present the evidence from Scripture and not from St Augustine, Luther, Calvin or John Wesley.

Oz

 

[twinc]

That the CC will become more protestant, as I stated previously.

strangely believe it or not the CATHOLIC church has always been protesting church - nothing wrong with protesting - even the first Protestants were Catholic - twinc

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

all Popes have been and are homo sapiens - lets have none of your monkey business here - twinc

Pope Benedict IX - accused of homosexuality and routine sodomy and bestiality
Pope Paul II - charged with dying while committing sodomy
Pope Sixtus IX - accused of being a lover of boys and sodomites
Pope Leo X - accused of homosexuality by two different men

This is all documented history
And it is only a partial list

You twinc should learn your history before you open your mouth

And there's no way that anyone is going to convince me that these type of men would be allowed to lead a church that belongs to Jesus Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,
Can you find anywhere in the NT that gives the names of Mary's other children? I can only find Jesus named as Mary's child.

Mary,

This is a red herring.

I've presented evidence in this thread of the biblical evidence for Jesus' brothers and sisters. That's enough, but you're not listening.
'
Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Have you bothered to READ the Joint Declaration??
The Catholic Church didn't acquiesce ONE point.

The Church's position is still the same.
The main thing that the Church stated was that if the term "Faith Alone" is to be used - it MUST be understood that faith includes works.

I read it.
This pope wants to make ammends with the Protestants.
He may be stopped somewhat by those in charge of the Vatican.
We shall soon see.

 

[Marymog]

Mary,

Again you have committed a Genetic Fallacy (the Fallacy of Origins). It is erroneous reasoning. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this.

As that link demonstrates, the Genetic Fallacy bases its claim for truth on the origin of the claim. Here you have asked if St Augustine got it wrong or did I get it wrong?

The logical form of this argument is:

1. The origin of the claim of Mary's perpetual virginity is presented - St Augustine or OzSpen;
2. Therefore the claim is true or false.

The fact that St Augustine taught the perpetual virginity of Mary, does not make the perpetual virginity the truth. That St Augustine taught this is irrelevant to the claim that the perpetual virginity is correct.

We need to present the evidence from Scripture and not from St Augustine, Luther, Calvin or John Wesley.

Oz

Hi Oz,

If Augustine doesn't matter in this conversation then why does he matter when you use him (or any CF) to back up your beliefs on your website?

Since I want to use him, he doesn't matter?

Curious Mary

 

[OzSpen]

Haha! You wish.....and me too. I read it years ago...and I have no idea where.
Written in black and white...so has to be true ...right?
But, historians believe he was genuine....could be true...

Some historians and archaeologists consider that Josephus was inaccurate in a number of his claims:

Was Josephus always correct? Certainly not. His inaccuracies range from vagueness to blatant exaggeration. Shaye Cohen

accuses him of "inveterate sloppiness".19 The index to Cohen's book goes so far as actually to include entries for "exaggeration", "inconsistency and sloppiness" and "corrupt transmission of names and numbers".20 Indeed, even if it is accepted that copyists were responsible for not a few of his mistakes (some of which have been hinted at already), it still cannot be denied that he was by nature somewhat negligent.21 The list of scholars who have deprecated his errors is long22 but suffice it to mention here the accusations of tow eminent archaeologists alone, since archaeology is the central theme of the present discussion. Albright remarks on "how inaccurate Josephus generally was in details . . ."23 Vincent goes even further. "Il serait superflu", he maintains, "d'accentuer de nouveau la futilite de toute evaluation fondee sur les chiffres de Josephe."24

(source)​

Therefore, with Josephus we need to check his 'facts' with other sources - where possible.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,

If Augustine doesn't matter in this conversation then why does he matter when you use him (or any CF) to back up your beliefs on your website?

Since I want to use him, he doesn't matter?

Curious Mary

Mary,

Why don't you acknowledge that you committed a Genetic Fallacy?

Oz

 

[Marymog]

Mary,

This is a red herring.

I've presented evidence in this thread of the biblical evidence for Jesus' brothers and sisters. That's enough, but you're not listening.
'
Oz

Hi Oz,

That is a non-answer. I will answer for you: No, Marymog, I can not find anywhere in the NT that gives the names of Mary's other children.

I, and greater theologians than you and, have presented evidence for the biblical AND non biblical (historical writings) evidence that they were not Mary's children. Why is that not enough for you? Maybe you're not listening?

Curious Mary