It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[BreadOfLife]

Let me say this...
It's JESUS who saves us.
NOT doctrine.

I agree with you that it's nice that you correct the imperceptions people have regarding Catholicism. I've done this myself, believe it or not.

However, we have nothing to investigate other than the will of our Lord.

And...
I don't use the internet.
I assume nothing of you, please do the same.

Make no mistake - we are saved BY Jesus, but we are saved THROUGH His Church.
Jesus set it up this way - not men.

Jesus is the one who gave His Church complete and supreme earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16).
Jesus is the one who left it up to his Church to write, compile and declare the Canon of Scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15).
Jesus is the one who gave the leaders of His Church the power to forgive or retain sins (John 20:21-23).
The Church is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
Jesus equates His very self with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

Without His Church being guided by the Holy Spirit - we are orphans - and Jesus said He would not leave us as orphans (John 14:18).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Am I voluntarily ignorant? At times, for at times I give in to becoming "weary in well doing" [II Thess 3:13]. But, what believer is there that has not done this? So then we turn again to God and along with Jesus say, "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." [from Matt 26:39].

But having admitted that, I must also say that every morning I spend my time with God reading the scriptures and praying. This plus more time during much of many days. Is this enough? No, for as the Apostle Paul writes:

"Rejoice evermore.
Pray without ceasing.
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:16-19

Also he writes:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom 12:1-2

The time will come when the stone "cut out without hands" will smite the image on his feet of iron and clay. Let us, neither of us, be within those feet, but rather in the stone.

Thank you dear Lord for thy mercy and thy Love.

That's all wonderful - but your false accusation still stands.
You made the claim that the Church taught and even endorsed the worship of Mary. This is a completely bogus claim.

 

[amadeus]

That's all wonderful - but your false accusation still stands.
You made the claim that the Church taught and even endorsed the worship of Mary. This is a completely bogus claim.

No, my friend, I said that people I knew within the church worshipped Mary including me. As far as I knew at that the church endorsed it. I admitted my error because of my ignorance. I indicated that people within the church failed to teach us better. You did not carefully read what I wrote.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,

I am not disagreeing with your conclusion that Mary "could have had children with Joseph". The question at hand is did she. Since scripture only names Jesus as her child, I choose to agree with scripture. The ONLY evidence from historical writings is that she DID NOT have any other children.

Therefor the truth scale, scripture and historical writings, is balanced more toward her NOT having any child other than Jesus.

Funny how my question to you is a fallacy, however, as you may have noticed I only re-asked the question you asked me. I used YOUR question. So if my question to you is a fallacy, isn't your question to me a fallacy? I will admit to a genetic fallacy. Are you going to admit to being a hypocrite?

Curious Mary

Mary,

Again you did not address the context of my post so what you wrote is a red herring fallacy.

Oz

 

[bbyrd009]

The ONLY evidence from historical writings is that she DID NOT have any other children.

Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't His mother called Mary, and His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

 

[OzSpen]

to suggest that Joseph and Mary had no other sons to carry on Joseph's line would actually be saying that they were cursed, too.

bb,

Do you have Scripture to support that statement?

It was normal for a Jewish married couple to have children (plural):

There has been much discussion in recent years among rabbinic authorities on the rights and wrongs of birth control. Almost all of the legal discussions on the subject are concerned with whether it is ever possible to disregard these two Jewish principles:

1. It is a mitzvah to marry, procreate, and have children.

2. It is forbidden to “waste seed” (i.e., emit semen without purpose).

Since birth control negates the first principle cited above and is generally assumed to violate the second principle of wasting seed, there is a great need to clarify whether birth control is ever permissible in Jewish tradition.

The duty to have children is based on the rabbinic interpretation of a verse in the Book of Genesis 1:28: “Be fruitful and multiply.” The Talmud (Mishnah Yevamot 6:6) cites the following: According to the school of Shammai, being fruitful and multiplying is interpreted as having a minimum of two sons, while according to the Hillel school it is interpreted to mean a son and a daughter (because the Bible says “male and female He created them”). The rabbis established the halakhah (Jewish law) according to the view of Rabbi Hillel and his school (Procreation and Contraception).​

Therefore, in Jewish culture, it is reasonable to expect that Joseph and Mary had other children and Scriptures provided in this thread suggest this.

Oz

 

[twinc]

Hi twinc,

To whom does the Holy Spirit speak thru?

Mary

the only one many will not accept as infallible or inspired - but only rarely viz now and again and only if and when required - the rest of the time he can be in error and uninspired like the rest of us - hope this helps - some say this and some say that but what is correct is what is inspired and by and via whom - twinc

 

[BreadOfLife]

Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't His mother called Mary, and His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

Why do you cling to verses like this one that only work to prove the Catholic position??
As YOU and everybody here has already been shown - these are the children of the "other" Mary standing near the cross:

Matt. 27:56 says, "among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of JAMES THE YOUNGER and of Joses, and Salome".

Finally, John 19:25 tells us, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

A comparison of these accounts of the crucifixion shows the mother of James and Joseph (Joses) to be Mary, the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. She is obviously a relative of the Blessed Mother. James the Younger is the one called "brother of the Lord."

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, my friend, I said that people I knew within the church worshipped Mary including me. As far as I knew at that the church endorsed it. I admitted my error because of my ignorance. I indicated that people within the church failed to teach us better. You did not carefully read what I wrote.

Teach you "better"??

I am a cradle Catholic and ALL my life, I know not to worship anybody other than God.
I learned that by listening to the Scripture readings during each Mass I attended. You and I listened to the SAME readings, so how is it that YOU came to the conclusion that you were to "worship" Mary??

It never fails to amaze me how ex-Catholics claim that they "weren't taught" this or that in the Catholic Church - and the simple answer is that THEY didn't pay attention.

 

[amadeus]

Teach you "better"??

I am a cradle Catholic and ALL my life, I know not to worship anybody other than God.
I learned that by listening to the Scripture readings during each Mass I attended. You and I listened to the SAME readings, so how is it that YOU came to the conclusion that you were to "worship" Mary??

It never fails to amaze me how ex-Catholics claim that they "weren't taught" this or that in the Catholic Church - and the simple answer is that THEY didn't pay attention.

My friend I was an active and devout Catholic from 1949 [ca. age 6] until 1961 [ca. age 18]. All of that was prior to Vatican II. All of the masses were conducted primarily in Latin. The major exception was when the priest spoke to the people from the pulpit and sermonized. He would always read from scripture at that time. The scripture always related directly to his sermon. There were no general readings of scripture at that time.

I do remember sitting on a chair for altar boys wishing that the priest would read more from the Bible than he did. That never happened while I was an active Catholic.
One reason I serious considered the Catholic priesthood was I believed that then I would be encouraged to read the Bible myself.

The general readings to read the whole Bible in a 2 year period in all Catholic churches did not begin until after Vatican II, long after I was gone. The Mary worship was emphasized primarily by the nuns in catechism. Catechism was taught to anyone who took religious release from the public school for that purpose, once a week. I never missed it unless I was absent from school. I always paid close attention. Of course, I only remember generalities as it was after all more than 50 years ago. The religious release was only granted for elementary schools, not for high schools so mine would have ended in 1957 the year I graduated from the 8th grade.

I know now that Pope Pius XII who was in office during most my Catholic years encouraged reading the Bible, but in my mission church that was never the case. Following the lead of my spiritual leaders [priests and nuns], I never owned a Bible nor did I ever read one during those years. I purchased my first Bible in 1976 and began reading it in 1976 [ca. age 33] when I began attending a Protestant church for the first time.

 

[BreadOfLife]

My friend I was an active and devout Catholic from 1949 [ca. age 6] until 1961 [ca. age 18]. All of that was prior to Vatican II. All of the masses were conducted primarily in Latin. The major exception was when the priest spoke to the people from the pulpit and sermonized. He would always read from scripture at that time. The scripture always related directly to his sermon. There were no general readings of scripture at that time.

I do remember sitting on a chair for altar boys wishing that the priest would read more from the Bible than he did. That never happened while I was an active Catholic.
One reason I serious considered the Catholic priesthood was I believed that then I would be encouraged to read the Bible myself.

The general readings to read the whole Bible in a 2 year period in all Catholic churches did not begin until after Vatican II, long after I was gone. The Mary worship was emphasized primarily by the nuns in catechism. Catechism was taught to anyone who took religious release from the public school for that purpose, once a week. I never missed it unless I was absent from school. I always paid close attention. Of course, I only remember generalities as it was after all more than 50 years ago. The religious release was only granted for elementary schools, not for high schools so mine would have ended in 1957 the year I graduated from the 8th grade.

I know now that Pope Pius XII who was in office during most my Catholic years encouraged reading the Bible, but in my mission church that was never the case. Following the lead of my spiritual leaders [priests and nuns], I never owned a Bible nor did I ever read one during those years. I purchased my first Bible in 1976 and began reading it in 1976 [ca. age 33] when I began attending a Protestant church for the first time.

And the nuns taught you to "Worship" Mary?
I find that extremely difficult to believe because that would make them apostate Catholics in grave opposition to the teachings of the Church.

When I talk to people like you - it's usually what they perceived - and not what they were taught. Some simply like to proliferate the lie because it's a good excuse for having left the Church.

Case in point - my sister, who is virulently anti-Catholic wrote an article for her church newsletter and claimed that she was also taught to "worship" Mary. I called her on it and asked her to prove her charges, which she could not.

 

[amadeus]

And the nuns taught you to "Worship" Mary?
I find that extremely difficult to believe because that would make them apostate Catholics in grave opposition to the teachings of the Church.

When I talk to people like you - it's usually what they perceived - and not what they were taught. Some simply like to proliferate the lie because it's a good excuse for having left the Church.

Case in point - my sister, who is virulently anti-Catholic wrote an article for her church newsletter and claimed that she was also taught to "worship" Mary. I called her on it and asked her to prove her charges, which she could not.

They likely used the word you do, "veneration" to describe our relationship with Mary, but at that age, the differences you describe here between veneration and worship, would not have stuck very well. I have never in my life for any reason used the word "veneration" as part of my spoken vocabulary. Somewhere along the line I learned the difference between it and "worship" in my written or 'read' vocabulary, but that was certainly a long time after it would have made a difference to the things already planted in me as how to treat Mary. Why would you expect a pre-adolescent child to understand what you understand now? I you say you did, then you were likely an unusual child. Most of my Catholic friends at that age knew less about the RCC than I did.

I don't like to proliferate lies about anything, including and especially Catholic church. I received good things while I was there and I have not forgotten them. I have never liked it when I have heard people put the RCC down based on what I knew was misinformation. Not being Catholic, I was never actively pro-Catholic on Christian forums, but when there was no Catholic there willing and able to take the initiative I have jumped in and argued against what I recognized as misinformation. But... I am not and never have been an expert on Catholicism. I leave that in your hands. Please, however, do not call me anti-Catholic. I remember warmly my roots in Catholicism because of the love I received while I was there without regard for teachings, right or wrong or indifferent. I have been in many Protestant churches where there was less love than I saw in that Catholic church. Now get on with your agenda with someone else.

 

[Marymog]

Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't His mother called Mary, and His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

Hi,

We are discussing Perpetual Virginity.

 

[Marymog]

the only one many will not accept as infallible or inspired - but only rarely viz now and again and only if and when required - the rest of the time he can be in error and uninspired like the rest of us - hope this helps - some say this and some say that but what is correct is what is inspired and by and via whom - twinc

Can you put that in common English. Please?

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

They likely used the word you do, "veneration" to describe our relationship with Mary, but at that age, the differences you describe here between veneration and worship, would not have stuck very well. I have never in my life for any reason used the word "veneration" as part of my spoken vocabulary. Somewhere along the line I learned the difference between it and "worship" in my written or 'read' vocabulary, but that was certainly a long time after it would have made a difference to the things already planted in me as how to treat Mary. Why would you expect a pre-adolescent child to understand what you understand now? I you say you did, then you were likely an unusual child. Most of my Catholic friends at that age knew less about the RCC than I did.

I don't like to proliferate lies about anything, including and especially Catholic church. I received good things while I was there and I have not forgotten them. I have never liked it when I have heard people put the RCC down based on what I knew was misinformation. Not being Catholic, I was never actively pro-Catholic on Christian forums, but when there was no Catholic there willing and able to take the initiative I have jumped in and argued against what I recognized as misinformation. But... I am not and never have been an expert on Catholicism. I leave that in your hands. Please, however, do not call me anti-Catholic. I remember warmly my roots in Catholicism because of the love I received while I was there without regard for teachings, right or wrong or indifferent. I have been in many Protestant churches where there was less love than I saw in that Catholic church. Now get on with your agenda with someone else.

My only agenda here is to stamp out misinformation and to expose lies.
I never called you a liar - not did I say that you were an anti-Catholic. I said that there are SOME ex-Catholics who lie about what the Church teaches in order to justify leaving the Church.

After reading your posts - I honestly believe that you were simply ignorant about what the Church taught and have no malice.
Too bad there aren't more honest Protestants like yourself on this forum.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi,

We are discussing Perpetual Virginity.

A perpetual virgin can't have other brothers for Jesus.

'"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?' (Matt 13:55 NIV). Here these 4 males are called 'his brothers' and the context includes 'his mother's name Mary'.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Make no mistake - we are saved BY Jesus, but we are saved THROUGH His Church.
Jesus set it up this way - not men.

Jesus is the one who gave His Church complete and supreme earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16).
Jesus is the one who left it up to his Church to write, compile and declare the Canon of Scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15).
Jesus is the one who gave the leaders of His Church the power to forgive or retain sins (John 20:21-23).
The Church is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
Jesus equates His very self with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

Without His Church being guided by the Holy Spirit - we are orphans - and Jesus said He would not leave us as orphans (John 14:18).

I didn't get an alert for this. Came upon it by chance...Wonder how much else I've missed...

You've capitalized Church.
So I agree with all you've said.

 

[GodsGrace]

My only agenda here is to stamp out misinformation and to expose lies.
I never called you a liar - not did I say that you were an anti-Catholic. I said that there are SOME ex-Catholics who lie about what the Church teaches in order to justify leaving the Church.

After reading your posts - I honestly believe that you were simply ignorant about what the Church taught and have no malice.
Too bad there aren't more honest Protestants like yourself on this forum.

I don't believe some posters lie about the CC in order to justify their leaving it.

If they had to justify it, they never would have left because it would mean they're sorry.

I also don't like calling persons a liar because they are expousing a different POV or what they believe to be correct.

As I've said before and will repeat, there is no teaching in the CC.
Most members of that church do not even know what doctrine they're supposed to believe.

 

[OzSpen]

Can you put that in common English. Please?

Mary

Mary could you please back quote so that I know to which post you refer?

 

[OzSpen]

My dear, Dear Oz,

Why don't you answer the question?

Because it would reveal your hypocrisy?

Curious Mary

And that response is a red herring.