It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[GodsGrace]

Just look at any good catholic nativity scene
what's-a-matter wit you?

The other ones couldn't fit !!
Plus, think of the cost of making the nativity scene.

And anyway, you think they got there the night Jesus was born?
HA!

Try a few years later. Or maybe just two. Who can know for sure.
I wasn't there.

 

[Jun2u]

Vows taken by a Jewish unmarried woman has already been discussed here, post #755.

Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and Bollinger all taught the PVM. Are you saying the reformers didn't know their Bible?

Thousands of conflicting "terms" isn't going to help you.
None of these verses say "knew her not". Your issue is not with the word "knew", it's with the word "until", which has been beaten to death in this forum.

Matt. 1:25 – this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove “not until” means “not up to the point that”:

Luke 20:43 – Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

Luke 1:80 – John was in the desert “up to the point of (until) his manifestation to Israel.” Not John “was in the desert until after” his manifestation.

Luke 2:37 – Anna was a widow until she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

see above.


Here is a challenge for you. Find one Protestant church before the 19th century that opposed the PVofM. It's denial was invented by Protestant modernist liberals and atheists from the rotten fruit of the Enlightenment Era. Your following a man made tradition.

A Protestant Defense of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

"As an Evangelical, I had long regarded the reading of Ezekiel 44:1-2 to support Mary’s perpetual virginity as mere 'proof-texting.' I thought the Fathers were beginning with this passage and then trying to build a doctrine of perpetual virginity on it. But the more I saw how the early Church (including the New Testament authors)

• linked the tabernacle,
• the temple,
• and the Body of Christ,
• and the roles of Mary,
• the ark,
• and the gate of the temple,

the more I came to realize that the Church’s faith in Mary’s perpetual virginity was not derived from Ezekiel 44:1-2 any more than her faith in the virgin birth was derived from Isaiah 7:14. . .

Jesus' "Brothers" and Mary's Perpetual Virginity

A Biblical Basis For Mary's Perpetual Virginity?

The argument that there is no explicit proof text for the PVofM is as silly as claiming Jesus didn't remain a virgin because there is no proof text. It's Duh Vinci Code theology.

I think you have misunderstood my post. I was NOT contending about Mary’s virginity, rather about your church’s doctrine of belief she was a perpetual virgin. The word “perpetual” as I understand means “forever.”

And that is exactly my contention. Hence, the example I’ve offered of the Genesis account. I don’t see how you can get around that Adam “knew” (had sexual relation) Eve and she conceived and bare a son. Note, God was driving home this point three times in Genesis 4 to signify a perfect number as likened to three distinct persons in the trinity. This is not understood because it is spiritually discerned.

Likewise, in Matthew 1:25 we read that Joseph “knew” (sexual relation) not Mary till Jesus was born. I have no problem with the word “till” as you’ve alluded. It is irrelevant whether Joseph “knew” Mary a year, five years, or 10 years after she bare Jesus, the fact remains they had sexual relation – the Bible is very clear on this teaching – hence, Mary CANNOT be in a state of perpetual virgin as the CC and its’ members believes her to be!

I wonder why you did not respond to the Genesis account when you first responded to my post. Hmmm

Connovore is not the authority or ispired, the Bible is, therefore I must treat his commentary as an assumption. His and/or other commentaries although might seem holy, yet their best work is still tainted by sin.

To God Be The Glory

 

[bbyrd009]

1. What does bread have to do with this?

Manna is another type for Christ, Christ is the Bread of Life

 

[bbyrd009]

2. Jesus being God is not a Catholic thing. Protestants also believe Jesus is God.

run from them both, imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

4. Well, see you don't know about the hypostatic union.

ah, ok.

It has nothing to do with electricity. Jesus was God...

that's all i need to hear, thanks

 

[bbyrd009]

This was the point for Him coming down here to this dreadful earth. (compared to heaven).

then you might explain why He did not seem to want to leave, in this case

 

[bbyrd009]

5. Last, but not least... You don't know who you are???
You're bb !!

ha i mean "who am i to try and change your mind?" lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Catch 22.

If we worship Him, He must be God.
If He's God, we should worship Him.

notice how "worship" has been turned into this dead thing that people do on their knees, in a mortgaged building they call "church" now. This is not worship anyway, this is bowing to a Snake. That word so often translated "worship" has other meanings, that we might more easily comprehend, but of course they are not nearly as sanctimonious-sounding, so the religious eschew them i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Son of Man means ‘every man’

sure seems so to me, ya. How could i even be expected to follow/emulate a Son of God?
So just like that, just that quickly, endless legions of fence-sitters are vindicated, and they can now confidently proclaim "Jesus did it all, and i can sit here on the couch and eat Cheetos cuz Jesus died for my sins. I might go to hell for even trying to do anything."

 

[GodsGrace]

notice how "worship" has been turned into this dead thing that people do on their knees, in a mortgaged building they call "church" now. This is not worship anyway, this is bowing to a Snake. That word so often translated "worship" has other meanings, that we might more easily comprehend, but of course they are not nearly as sanctimonious-sounding, so the religious eschew them i guess

To me worship means to place god above everything.
Even when I'm not doing it, I know it.
It means to give him the credit.
To have Him on your lips,,,talking about Him to whom will listen.
To consider Him, make Him a part of your life.
Keep holy every day...as much as possible.
I fail a lot.

 

[GodsGrace]

ha i mean "who am i to try and change your mind?" lol

I know you know who you are.
R U always so serious?

 

[GodsGrace]

then you might explain why He did not seem to want to leave, in this case

I don't understand...

 

[GodsGrace]

sure seems so to me, ya. How could i even be expected to follow/emulate a Son of God?
So just like that, just that quickly, endless legions of fence-sitters are vindicated, and they can now confidently proclaim "Jesus did it all, and i can sit here on the couch and eat Cheetos cuz Jesus died for my sins. I might go to hell for even trying to do anything."

Interesting point!
Never thought of this.
Relating no - work to the God factor, I mean.

 

[bbyrd009]

To me worship means to place god above everything.
Even when I'm not doing it, I know it.
It means to give him the credit.
To have Him on your lips,,,talking about Him to whom will listen.
To consider Him, make Him a part of your life.
Keep holy every day...as much as possible.
I fail a lot.

yes, unfortunately we have to accept that other people choose to define "worship" differently,

wor·ship
ˈwərSHəp/
noun

1. 1.
   the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
   "the worship of God"
   synonyms: reverence, veneration, adoration, glorification, glory, exaltation; More

verb

1. 1.
   show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.
   "the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods"
   synonyms: revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, glorify, exalt, extol; More

and this definition unfortunately includes things done ritually or "religiously." Those seven spirits that infest a new seeker, i guess, if they are not careful

 

[bbyrd009]

I know you know who you are.
R U always so serious?

ah, really hard for me to detect sarcasm or whatever anyway, in forums almost impossible for me, sorry. I am a social idiot :/

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't understand...

well, Christ prayed to stay when it was time, when your perspective infers that He was dying to leave, yes?

 

[GodsGrace]

ah, really hard for me to detect sarcasm or whatever anyway, in forums almost impossible for me, sorry. I am a social idiot :/

Yeah.
I have an extra dry sense of humor...
Sorry.
But get used to it!

 

[GodsGrace]

well, Christ prayed to stay when it was time, when your perspective infers that He was dying to leave, yes?

No.
I said we are Not dying to leave.

Although we do have to die to leave..

Christ knew what was coming.
His very own chosen people were going to crucify him.

 

[bbyrd009]

No.
I said we are Not dying to leave.

so you say, yet many of these supposed "we" interpret Paul to mean that he craved death in order to be "with the Lord."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The other ones couldn't fit !!
Plus, think of the cost of making the nativity scene.

And anyway, you think they got there the night Jesus was born?
HA!

Try a few years later. Or maybe just two. Who can know for sure.
I wasn't there.

They got there when the Star took them there.
He may have been 27 for all we know.