Co- Redemptrix

[GodsGrace]

Here, let's get this thread back to topic.
Mary: Co-Redemptrix?

There's so much written about Mary in the CCC
(Catechism of the Catholic Church) that one hardly knows where to begin.

A good idea to begin is that the CC (Catholic Church - it's incorrect to call it the RCC Roman Catholic Church --Roman is a rite and not the name of a church) has begun to call Mary the Mother of the SON OF GOD, instead of MOTHER OF GOD, since, I'm sure we can all agree, God does NOT have a mother. He always was and always will be.

For instance, in the CCC paragraph (it goes by paragraphs)
no. 485 and 486

485 The mission of the Holy Spirit is always conjoined and ordered to that of the Son. The Holy Spirit, "the Lord, the giver of Life", is sent to sanctify the womb of the Virgin Mary and divinely fecundate it, causing her to conceive the eternal Son of the Father in a humanity drawn from her own.

486 The Father's only Son, conceived as man in the womb of the Virgin Mary, is "Christ", that is to say, anointed by the Holy Spirit, from the beginning of his human existence, though the manifestation of this fact takes place only progressively: to the shepherds, to the magi, to John the Baptist, to the disciples. Thus the whole life of Jesus Christ will make manifest "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power."

As we can see, the CC is endeavoring to move away from some language that could be confusing. The problem, IMO, is that the people sitting in the pews of the CC every Sunday DO NOT know anything about their faith or what is happening in the CC today. There is NO TEACHING. This makes for much confusion when Catholics are speaking to other Christians. Much incorrect information is passed on to others.

Mary is not to be worshipped, and yet she is.
She is to bring persons to Christ and yet they stop at her.

I'd like to say that I was raised Catholic and know the doctrine because I've taught in that chuch. I'd like to say that the CCC can be a very confusing book.

And I'd like to say that I love and honor Mary as the one person in all the world who knows Jesus as no one else does. I will not demean her in any way, but I will also not raise her to the level of our Savior, who is also HER savior.

 

[GodsGrace]

I didn't say two different things here.
Unless you believe in Once Saved Always Saved and deny that we have free will - you can understand that we can be members of the Body of Christ and later, choose to leave it.


This, to me is a frightening question because you claim to have been a catechist - and you should have known this when you were teaching.

Infant Baptism is a Sacred Tradition handed down by the Apostles. We see this in the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
In the New Testament, we see that Peter baptized Cornelius - and his ENTIRE household based on the faith of Cornelius. We see the SAME thing when Paul baptized the ENTIRE households of Stephanas and the Philippian Jailer.

Entire households included children of ALL ages. Baptism replaces circumcision of the flesh, which was done to infant boys based on the faith of their parents.

Anyway - that is the short answer.

Instead of being frightened, you might try answering my questions.
I happen to know the answer, but some reading along may not.

Do you suppose that infants are baptized because of original sin?
Do you know that the CC is CONSIDERING changing the explanation of Original Sin since many in that church agree that baptizing infants is of no value?

Please explain to us what Original Sin has to do with baptizing infants.
If you can't do it --- I will.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Face it BoL
It does seem to be worship.
Anything that takes the attention away from Jesus is idolatry.
I walk into some homes here in Italy and see pictures of the POPE on walls instead of pictures of JESUS.

You live in the CCC, which I've taught BTW, BUT, you don't seem to be able to leave your comfy home and face up to the REAL world.

How many times AT MASS have you heard your priest say NOT to pray to Mary as if to God? And don't give me the intercession bit please.
I happen to already know any answer you could give me.

Perception is half the war.
1 Thessalonians 5:22
"abstain from any appearance of evil".

For instance, find out about remarrieds receiving communion and quit spewing out the word LIAR. Maybe you could talk to your local friendly parish priest??

First of all - stop lying.

I never use the word "LIAR" about anybody here. That is a lie of YOUR creation.

Secondly - I already addressed the distribution of the Eucharist to remarried people. I see it ALL the time and it is nothing new.
Not sure why you think this is a "new" practice.

Finally - YOUR accusation and that of your ignorant friend Rollo was that Catholics WORSHIP Mary. You guys didn't say that they "appeared" to be worshiping her. Now, you're changing your tune by saying, "It does seem to be worship."

Make up your mind - you're not a very good anti-Catholic . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ummmmm.
THIS POST.

(and almost every other one)

TRANSLATION:
"I can't find a post where you called somebody a "liar" - but I've dug myself into a hole that I can't get out of."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Here, let's get this thread back to topic.
Mary: Co-Redemptrix?

There's so much written about Mary in the CCC
(Catechism of the Catholic Church) that one hardly knows where to begin.

A good idea to begin is that the CC (Catholic Church - it's incorrect to call it the RCC Roman Catholic Church --Roman is a rite and not the name of a church) has begun to call Mary the Mother of the SON OF GOD, instead of MOTHER OF GOD, since, I'm sure we can all agree, God does NOT have a mother. He always was and always will be.

For instance, in the CCC paragraph (it goes by paragraphs)
no. 485 and 486

485 The mission of the Holy Spirit is always conjoined and ordered to that of the Son. The Holy Spirit, "the Lord, the giver of Life", is sent to sanctify the womb of the Virgin Mary and divinely fecundate it, causing her to conceive the eternal Son of the Father in a humanity drawn from her own.

486 The Father's only Son, conceived as man in the womb of the Virgin Mary, is "Christ", that is to say, anointed by the Holy Spirit, from the beginning of his human existence, though the manifestation of this fact takes place only progressively: to the shepherds, to the magi, to John the Baptist, to the disciples. Thus the whole life of Jesus Christ will make manifest "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power."

As we can see, the CC is endeavoring to move away from some language that could be confusing. The problem, IMO, is that the people sitting in the pews of the CC every Sunday DO NOT know anything about their faith or what is happening in the CC today. There is NO TEACHING. This makes for much confusion when Catholics are speaking to other Christians. Much incorrect information is passed on to others.

Mary is not to be worshipped, and yet she is.
She is to bring persons to Christ and yet they stop at her.

I'd like to say that I was raised Catholic and know the doctrine because I've taught in that chuch. I'd like to say that the CCC can be a very confusing book.

And I'd like to say that I love and honor Mary as the one person in all the world who knows Jesus as no one else does. I will not demean her in any way, but I will also not raise her to the level of our Savior, who is also HER savior.

You MAY have taught as a catechist, whicc is a tragedy - but you didn't know SQUAT about what the Church teaches - and still don't.

WHEN are you going to STOP lying, GG?? The Catechism calls Mary the MOTER OF GOD. You simply cherry-picked a few places where the title wasn’t being used.
There is no “change” or “endeavoring” to move away from this title.

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the MOTHER OF GOD and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O MOTHER OF GOD, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of MOTHER OF GOD,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the MOTHER OF GOD and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

975 "We believe that the Holy MOTHER OF GOD, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG § 15).

Here's an idea: Instead of embarrassing yourself by getting caught in lies on all your posts - why don't you do your homework instead??

 

[mjrhealth]

I never use the word "LIAR" about anybody here. That is a lie of YOUR creation.

Actually you have and it is not teh first time its al lyou know is lies.

How does exposing YOUR lies put ME in

see there is the evidence in black and white could make it bold and bigger if you are blind and cannot see.

 

[Dcopymope]

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

Well, I only have one mother, and its not Mary, she may be yours though. :)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Instead of being frightened, you might try answering my questions.
I happen to know the answer, but some reading along may not.

Do you suppose that infants are baptized because of original sin?
Do you know that the CC is CONSIDERING changing the explanation of Original Sin since many in that church agree that baptizing infants is of no value?

Please explain to us what Original Sin has to do with baptizing infants.
If you can't do it --- I will.

Let's address your blatant LIE first.

The Church has never strayed away from the teaching on Original Sin - NOR has it strayed from its teaching on Infant Baptism, and it never will. You may LIVE in Italy - but you're about as out-of-touch with the Church as a person can be . . .

Original Sin is a Scriptural dogma and a condition that we are ALL born into. The only exceptions were Adam & Eve, Jesus and Mary.
Because of it, we all suffer the condition of concupiscence, which is the proclivity towards sin.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they NOT to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, I only have one mother, and its not Mary, she may be yours though. :)

She is the mother of ALL true Christians.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually you have and it is not teh first time its al lyou know is lies.

see there is the evidence in black and white could make it bold and bigger if you are blind and cannot see.

Another lie.
Where did I CALL you a "Liar."

Answer: NOWHERE.

 

[Dcopymope]

She is the mother of ALL true Christians.

Sure, all true Catholics you mean, but not all true adopted sons of God. :)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sure, all true Catholics you mean, but not all true adopted sons of God. :)

ALL Christians - whether they like it or not.
All true Christians wouldn't have a problem with it . . .

 

[twinc]

what is the problem is that we are all liars - prove it for yourself via google take the [good test] - btw heaven is still closed to all non Christians - Christian baptism is our passport in to heaven provided we still know and remember the password imho - twinc

 

[Dcopymope]

ALL Christians - whether they like it or not.
All true Christians wouldn't have a problem with it . . .

True Christians would have a problem with it actually, since your stated catholic doctrine isn't in anyway backed up with scripture, in MY Bible that is, not yours.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The problem, IMO, is that the people sitting in the pews of the CC every Sunday DO NOT know anything about their faith or what is happening in the CC today. There is NO TEACHING. This makes for much confusion when Catholics are speaking to other Christians. Much incorrect information is passed on to others.

This is evident every time YOU post something about the Catholic Church.
However - it's not the Church's fault that some people are ignorant of their faith - it is the fault of the individual.

I go to the SAME Catholic Church that YOU claim to have attended - yet I am educated about what the Church teaches. You simply pass on the same myths and falsehoods that ALL anti-Catholics do. You were too lazy to learn about the faith, so you left.

That's the most common story of ex-Catholics like yourself.

 

[Stranger]

Let's address your blatant LIE first.

The Church has never strayed away from the teaching on Original Sin - NOR has it strayed from its teaching on Infant Baptism, and it never will. You may LIVE in Italy - but you're about as out-of-touch with the Church as a person can be . . .

Original Sin is a Scriptural dogma and a condition that we are ALL born into. The only exceptions were Adam & Eve, Jesus and Mary.
Because of it, we all suffer the condition of concupiscence, which is the proclivity towards sin.

You're quite busy calling everyone a liar. Yet Mary was no exception to original sin as Adam and Eve and Jesus were. Are you mistaken or are you lying?

Stranger

 

[Dcopymope]

You're quite busy calling everyone a liar. Yet Mary was no exception to original sin as Adam and Eve and Jesus were. Are you mistaken or are you lying?

Stranger

Apparently, she is in heaven now, sitting on the right hand of the Father along with Jesus, looking at the way she is exalted by the catholic church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

True Christians would have a problem with it actually, since your stated catholic doctrine isn't in anyway backed up with scripture, in MY Bible that is, not yours.

Ummmm, that's not true.

John 19:26-27
When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son. Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.”

Virtually EVERY single Early Church Father confirmed their understanding of this passage was that John represented ALL of mankind.

If you understand that Mary gave birth to Jesus, the Head of the Body, then you have to understand that she gave birth to the entire Body since a body can’t be separated. So, she gave birth to the members as well. She gave physical birth to Jesus, and made it possible for ALL us to receive spiritual life through Him.

 

[twinc]

This is evident every time YOU post something about the Catholic Church.
However - it's not the Church's fault that some people are ignorant of their faith - it is the fault of the individual.

I go to the SAME Catholic Church that YOU claim to have attended - yet I am educated about what the Church teaches. You simply pass on the same myths and falsehoods that ALL anti-Catholics do. You were too lazy to learn about the faith, so you left.

That's the most common story of ex-Catholics like yourself.

there is some truth on both sides - our first Pope Peter, at 1Peter3:15 = be prepared to give an answer, advised this but neither I nor most Catholics have been prepared by the Church but in the main have had to prepare ourselves - btw no two churches or priests even give the same homilies or the best and only teaching - twinc

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're quite busy calling everyone a liar. Yet Mary was no exception to original sin as Adam and Eve and Jesus were. Are you mistaken or are you lying?

Stranger

Wrong, Stranger.

I haven't called anybody a "Liar." That, in itself is a lie.
I've merely pointed out their lies.

Actually - according to Scripture, I'm telling the truth (Luke 1:28).
Mary is the ONLY person in ALL of Scripture to receive the title of "Kecharitomene." This title indicates that she was sinless.

The Greek word is Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” It is used as a title – a name.

The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, "Hail, Kecharitomene."