Baptism question that seems unbiblical

[101G]

Hebrews 3:4 "For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

Your position is nothing short of an abdication of responsibility.
If God does ALL the work - then He also does ALL the sinning.

What an asinine position . . .[/QUOTE]
Sinning is your unregenerate nature, LOL..... get GOD and put a stop to it. >>> LOL.

the only thing you want to abdicate is giving God the glory.

PCY

 

[101G]

Romans 1:21-25 "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen".

that's a good description of what's going on right now.

PCY.

 

[amadeus]

No - the Word of God lays pretty succinctly what the Church is.
I simply parroted that.

YOU are the one who doesn't understand what the Church is if you think it is in conflict with Truth.

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:5-7

 

[BreadOfLife]

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:5-7

And you abandoned that faith to follow the aberrant teachings of mere men.

 

[mjrhealth]

And you abandoned that faith to follow the aberrant teachings of mere men.

Oh you mean like catholism....

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your position is nothing short of an abdication of responsibility.
If God does ALL the work - then He also does ALL the sinning.

What an asinine position . . .

Sinning is your unregenerate nature, LOL..... get GOD and put a stop to it. >>> LOL.

the only thing you want to abdicate is giving God the glory.

PCY[/QUOTE]
No - God gets ALL the glory when one of His children does good because He prepared those works for us to do.
You have abdicated your responsibility - He will judge you accordingly.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh you mean like catholism....

The Holy Spirit guides Christ's Catholic Church.

The teachings and inventions of mere men came to fruition at the Protestant Revolt - and continues to this day with wackos like the ones at your online cult, aggressivechritianity.net.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hebrews 3:4 "For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.[/QUOTE]

The term 'Romanist' was already in use before Henry broke with Rome, as I said in post #135. The point being that people already had an understanding of the difference between the Roman Church and the Catholic Church, a difference between the Universal Church and the Roman Church. This distinction shows that by this time the Catholic Church was run by Rome. The Eastern Church recognized it in 1054. Christians in the West came to realize it in the 16th century.

I know what apostolic succession is and I reject it. It is nothing more than something devised by the Roman Church to give exclusive power of the priesthood over the laity. There is no apostolic line from the Apostles to the bishops. The only apostolic succession is the faith of the apostles which is passed down to every believer. James was not an apostle and it was he who was speaking in (Acts 15:13-30). Thus it is not your 'apostolic succession' that one must be in line with to have authority.

Stranger

This post is so historically-bankrupt - it's difficult to know where to begin.
Let's start with the Eastern Churches "not recognizing" the authority of the Bishop of Rome.

Hmmmmm, let's see . . .
At the Council of Chalcedon in the 5th century - the Fathers erupted and exclaimed, "Peter has spoken through Leo!"
Leo was the POPE at the time. This was 600 years BEFORE the Eat-West Split. The problems with Authority that culminated with the East-West Split were NOT always a "problem".

Here are some quotes from some Fathers of the East regarding the Papacy:

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria
The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).

 

[Stranger]

Hebrews 3:4 "For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

This post is so historically-bankrupt - it's difficult to know where to begin.
Let's start with the Eastern Churches "not recognizing" the authority of the Bishop of Rome.

Hmmmmm, let's see . . .
At the Council of Chalcedon in the 5th century - the Fathers erupted and exclaimed, "Peter has spoken through Leo!"
Leo was the POPE at the time. This was 600 years BEFORE the Eat-West Split. The problems with Authority that culminated with the East-West Split were NOT always a "problem".

Here are some quotes from some Fathers of the East regarding the Papacy:

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria
The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).[/QUOTE]

The rise of the papal authority was a slow march. You fail to say what the reason for the split was between the Eastern Church and the Roman Church.

Why?

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

The Holy Spirit guides Christ's Catholic Church.

The teachings and inventions of mere men came to fruition at the Protestant Revolt - and continues to this day with wackos like the ones at your online cult, aggressivechritianity.net.

no He does not, you are guided by your churches doctrines its rules its leaders and your own ideas, and that lovely thing you quote just shows how you despise teh truth,no answer, shoot teh messenger, 14 years is it, thats a lot of people yo9u are going to have to answer for.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The rise of the papal authority was a slow march. You fail to say what the reason for the split was between the Eastern Church and the Roman Church.

Why?

Stranger

No - I didn't "fail" to mention anything.

The 11th century split was largely about Authority. I simply gave you a badly-needed history lesson to show you that it was not always the case.
There was no "rise" of Papal Authority. There was a rise in the rejection of this Scriptural reality.

 

[BreadOfLife]

no He does not, you are guided by your churches doctrines its rules its leaders and your own ideas, and that lovely thing you quote just shows how you despise teh truth,no answer, shoot teh messenger, 14 years is it, thats a lot of people yo9u are going to have to answer for.

No - Jesus told His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).
YOUR problem is that you can't show me a Church that existed BEFORE the Catholic Church.

 

[mjrhealth]

No - Jesus told His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).
YOUR problem is that you can't show me a Church that existed BEFORE the Catholic Church.

Yes just not yours. we can all see that it is not the HS that leads you, you are led by your religion, you walk like a catholic, talk like a catholic, promote teh catholic agenda, so you are a catholic, by name and by nature , this bit

1Co_6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

Have a lovely day.

 

[junobet]

No - this is a false statement.
I gather that it was made to illustrate the fact that NO Pope n history has ever taught heresy because the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus's words to Peter in Matt. 16:18-19 pretty much say it all:

Matt. 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Well, personally I see no closer historical or spiritual link between Peter and the current Pope than between Peter and my local Protestant parish pastor. But I can accept that you have a different viewpoint.

So just out of interest: I hear that many Conservative American Catholics are not that pleased with Pope Francis. If he announced ex cathedra that the time has come to bless homosexual weddings, to ordain women priests, to hand out free condoms or that Trump is the antichrist …, would you still quote that passage above?

 

[Stranger]

No - I didn't "fail" to mention anything.

The 11th century split was largely about Authority. I simply gave you a badly-needed history lesson to show you that it was not always the case.
There was no "rise" of Papal Authority. There was a rise in the rejection of this Scriptural reality.

No kidding it was about authority. Papal authority. The Eastern Church refused to be servants of the Pope. The Roman Pontiff.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

And you abandoned that faith to follow the aberrant teachings of mere men.

My dear BOL, the reason Martin Luther and others left the formal church was because their efforts to effect correction were not just ignored. They were condemned. The man Luther was doubtless in error in places, but in that which was more important he probably followed God more closely than the leadership which you would continue to follow and to whom you would ask others to join. There is and must be a time and place to come out of her. The "her" is anyplace or anyone that anything above the kingdom and righteousness of God.

When God calls us out, how can we ignore Him? So then I know you will continue with your condemnation although God did not call you to it. God does not work as you work except it be with and for His left hand. We'll be praying for you.

 

[Helen]

. Goodness...there are four things we agree on...Hooray!!!
<snip>

... in a nutshell: I do have some idea why we are all fragmented as we are. Some do not want to accept the authority of The Church. They are their own authority, their own church; a church of one. Some accept the twisted words of unstable men instead of the words from the rock of the Church (Matthew 16:18). If you know what Church that rock is that Jesus spoke of then you will know The Truth because that Church is the foundation of Truth.

I am not un-happy with your response. I appreciate your response. :)

IHS....Mary

Sorry I did not get here to post yesterday at all.
I am sure this thread has moved on a lot since then.

Well good...at least we can agree on some things. :)
Thank you for sharing why you believe we are all splintered and divided on so many things. ( re above quote)

Sadly you probably guessed that we would differ on this reason.
I cannot take the authority of the Church...
Because the Church itself is splintered...and it differs.. Which ever branch or wing of "the church " that we speak of, ...even they cannot agree.
We don't even have to go or think outside this Forum to find that even those of the same denomination do not agree.
Even those on here of the Catholic church do not all believe the same thing!
And, outside of this forum some Catholics are happy with the Pope and some Catholics are very unhappy with him and do not like him. Some feel he is doing good things, some don't.
So no, sorry Mary..."the universal church" ( the whole body of all believers) does not have all truth correctly. Neither does the Catholic Church either , even they cannot all agree together!

The Church itself is in a mess....but, I still believe God will get us where He needs us to be.
When we strip all the discord and differences away...and it leaves us with nothing but our faith in Him for Himself.
Our faith in God Himself as the Good Shepherd to being all of His sheep...safely into The Fold ...at the end.
Faith and trust...until the end. We have nothing else.

Bless you...H

 

[Helen]

Hey everyone...how on earth do we all get from the subject of multiple baptism's in the OP to another argument involving the Catholic church again?

Why on earth do we so often end up back here?

 

[Marymog]

Sorry I did not get here to post yesterday at all.
I am sure this thread has moved on a lot since then.

Well good...at least we can agree on some things. :)
Thank you for sharing why you believe we are all splintered and divided on so many things. ( re above quote)

Sadly you probably guessed that we would differ on this reason.
I cannot take the authority of the Church...one, because the Church itself is splintered...and differ.. Which every wing of "the church " we speak of, even they cannot agree. We don't even have to go or think outside this Forum to find that even those of the same denomination do not agree.
Even those on here of the Catholic church do not all believe the same thing.
And, outside of this forum some Catholics like the Pope and some Catholics do not like him. Some feel he is doing good things, some don't.
So no, sorry Mary..."the universal church" ( the whole body of all believers) does not have all truth correctly. Neither does the Catholic Church, even they cannot all agree!

The Church itself is in a mess....but, I still believe God will get us where He needs us to be.
Strip all the discord and differences away...and it leaves us with nothing but our faith in Him for Himself.
Our faith in God Himself as the Good Shepherd to being all of His sheep...safely into The Fold ...at the end.
Faith and trust...until the end. We have nothing else.

Bless you...H

Thank you Helen.

You are not in your boat alone. You and many others can't take the authority of the Church. They are all their own authority.... A church of one.

People rejecting the authority of the Church actually started right after Jesus died. 1 John 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Corinthians 11:4, Galatians 1:7

We, and the Church, were told what to do with those people in 1 Titus 3:10 and Matthew 18:17

SURPRISE....I have to disagree with you...Christianity is a mess, not The Church. The Church is a rock that the gates of hell will not prevail against and it is the pillar and foundation of Truth....Well that's what scripture says at least....and I agree with scripture.

IHS...Mary

 

[Marymog]

Hey everyone...how on earth do we all get from the subject of multiple baptism's in the OP to another argument involving the Catholic church again?

Why on earth do we so often end up back here?

LOL....Thank you for that....I literally laughed out loud.

Getting back on track.

Baptism saves you .....Just like scripture says. Not baptism ALONE or MULTIPLE baptisms.....Just one baptism in Christ.

Mary