Are you catholic?

[aspen]

You really think this?
A person's childhood affects his entire life.
I don't believe one can get totally over a bad childhood, maybe just learn to accept it with God's help.

Returning the locus of control from outside (victim of circumstance) to yourself (Reconizing and learning from what happened) empowers you to make changes. Why be a victim of circumstance that were out of your control and happened 20 years ago?

 

[aspen]

And you have just evaded your responsibility to humankind

I am called to love my neighbor. Loving my neighbor does not include encouraging victimhood.

 

[Butterfly]

I see different issues here, not just one.
1. The church was keeping tabs on what people were giving by giving each person a number - is that a right or wrong thing to do?
Personally I think it is wrong, especially if it leads to choices being made further down the line that is based on what a person has contributed.
2 Regardless of age or circumstances stealing is stealing , however I remember my mum giving me bus fare for school every day, I use to choose to walk and buy a few sweets on the way home - it was harder walking as it was all uphill on the way back. Now my mum had given me that money for one purpose, but I used it for something else. I never classed myself as a thief, and my mum never dealt with it in that way, I was never punished. Is the difference the fact that she knew about it !
3. Abuse does impact and have a rippling effect on life and the choices we make, however we are still accountable for those choices , even if the actions of others have contributed in some way.

The last point is also something that applies to everyone, including those within church, and just because we may align with a certain church does not mean we cannot disagree with something they may have done - it seems to me that many defend everything because they want to be loyal.

Butterfly

 

[GodsGrace]

Returning the locus of control from outside (victim of circumstance) to yourself (Reconizing and learning from what happened) empowers you to make changes. Why be a victim of circumstance that were out of your control and happened 20 years ago?

I'm sure changes have been made.
We have too much in mind this idea of "victimization".
Some use this idea to their benefit.
Some are truly victimized and the experience does remain.
Just because something is out of our control does not mean it's easy to forget it. It could have happened 2 years ago or 20 years ago, to us it seems like it happened yesterday -- at least this is how I feel about my experiences. We seem to carry them with us our whole life.

I can also add that these changes you speak of are not easy to make.
You must have had a happy childhood.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see different issues here, not just one.
1. The church was keeping tabs on what people were giving by giving each person a number - is that a right or wrong thing to do?
Personally I think it is wrong, especially if it leads to choices being made further down the line that is based on what a person has contributed.
2 Regardless of age or circumstances stealing is stealing , however I remember my mum giving me bus fare for school every day, I use to choose to walk and buy a few sweets on the way home - it was harder walking as it was all uphill on the way back. Now my mum had given me that money for one purpose, but I used it for something else. I never classed myself as a thief, and my mum never dealt with it in that way, I was never punished. Is the difference the fact that she knew about it !
3. Abuse does impact and have a rippling effect on life and the choices we make, however we are still accountable for those choices , even if the actions of others have contributed in some way.

The last point is also something that applies to everyone, including those within church, and just because we may align with a certain church does not mean we cannot disagree with something they may have done - it seems to me that many defend everything because they want to be loyal.

Butterfly

Good post.
Very insightful.
You've said what I think but in a better way!

 

[brakelite]

I have no fondness for Catholicism, but much compassion, love, and a certain loyalty to Catholics, having been raised in that church also. Are there any posters on this forum who weren't Catholic??? Anyway, I do not think that number was explicitly yours @Rollo Tamasi but more likely a number identifying your family. While it was wrong to later form a bias in favour of those who were in a position to give more, (the opposite should have been the case) there may also have been the aspect of keeping a record of who gave what for taxation purposes. My church does that. They send me a summary each year of donations which are tax deductible.
I think there is enough different forms of ammunition one can choose to use against the church...any church...without creating things that don't quite do the job.

 

[Marymog]

I always wondered about things.
When I was young, the catholic church gave me an envelope with numbers on it that identified me.
I didn't know that at 9 years old.
So when my mother gave me a dime to put in the envelope, I use to take the dime out and give an empty envelope.
How would they know I figured.
Then I would go spend the dime on penny candy and be happy.
We were poor and I rarely got money for penny candy.
Well one day the church called my house and told my mother I was giving empty envelopes.
Boy, did I get in trouble.
I was shocked that I had my own number.
I was offended.
Who were they to number me?
I guess I was always independent, growing up in the city projects and surviving on a daily basis.
Well, after getting blasted by my parents, I decided "well, they never go to church, so who are they to tell me what to do with my dime".
And I deduced that since the catholic church was jam packed for 3 services every Sunday morning, that they didn't need my dime.
I needed it more than them.
Now when you think about it, giving a dime to the catholic when I did, I gave rebelliously.
But when I kept it and spent it on penny candy, I was happy and thank you.
And people tried to tell me I was sinning.
But I kept doing it.
Until my mother no longer gave me a dime.
I forget what happened after that.
I still had to go to church but I forget about the envelopes.
I doubt I gave in to my mother, I was far too rebellious.

But I guess my problem is, who are these church people that they felt they had a right to number a 9 year old boy and keep- track on my giving?
Why if I was a few years older I probably would have punched them out.

Let me see if I have got this straight:

You went to a Catholic Church that gave you envelopes with a number on it. You were supposed to put the money that your mother gave you into the envelope. However, YOU were offended when they found out you were stealing the money? I wonder how your mother felt to find out her son was stealing from her? Later in your post you called it YOUR DIME? Really? Whatever happened thou shalt not steal and honor your mother and father? Did you show your mother honor?

And you ask who are these church people to number a 9 year old boy? When you point a finger you have....never mind, you know.

Goodness....

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Let me see if I have got this straight:

You went to a Catholic Church that gave you envelopes with a number on it. You were supposed to put the money that your mother gave you into the envelope. However, YOU were offended when they found out you were stealing the money? I wonder how your mother felt to find out her son was stealing from her? Later in your post you called it YOUR DIME? Really? Whatever happened thou shalt not steal and honor your mother and father? Did you show your mother honor?

And you ask who are these church people to number a 9 year old boy? When you point a finger you have....never mind, you know.

Goodness....

I can't believe you people!
You place your values onto an abused 9 year old growing up in a tough neighborhood and pretty much on his own growing up.
You say it was my dime?
You bet it was.
Any money that was put in my hand was mine.
And lots of time I had to fight to keep it.
Ever have to live with that when you were a kid?
Honor your mother and father?
I didn't know what honor meant.
The word was never used in my house.

The school teachers.
All you people could be school teachers.
Follow the rules or be punished.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

 

[Butterfly]

I can't believe you people!
You place your values onto an abused 9 year old growing up in a tough neighborhood and pretty much on his own growing up.
You say it was my dime?
You bet it was.
Any money that was put in my hand was mine.
And lots of time I had to fight to keep it.
Ever have to live with that when you were a kid?
Honor your mother and father?
I didn't know what honor meant.
The word was never used in my house.

The school teachers.
All you people could be school teachers.
Follow the rules or be punished.

Just to say that within my earlier posts I was not sitting in judgment of you, I was merely trying to draw out what all the issues were and stating them in context of truth.
I have abuse in my past, I have also been through a broken marriage and dealt with betrayal- however God used my divorce to help me to re evaluate my own past , and part of that meant me truly looking at the choices I had made myself- part of that journey was being honest with my own failings, despite the wrong others had done to me.
I am sorry you feel ' got at ' - that was not my intention. I cannot speak for the intentions of others here X
Butterfly

 

[Stranger]

You know, you can point fingers and tell a child what's right and wrong and chastise him for choosing wrong, but it's another thing to reach out and try to help that child.
Which one do you think is the Christian thing to do?

As I said, I think your mother and the Church did the right thing. I think they did the Christian thing.

Stranger

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

As I said, I think your mother and the Church did the right thing. I think they did the Christian thing.

Stranger

Lol, I take it you didn't listen to my video.

 

[Stranger]

Lol, I take it you didn't listen to my video.

No, but a video will not change my mind. I understand why you have said, and that is enough.

Stranger

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No, but a video will not change my mind. I understand why you have said, and that is enough.

Stranger

No, but a video will not change my mind. I understand why you have said, and that is enough.

Stranger

I wasn't talking about my mother or the church.
I was talking about you.
Do you have any compassion for people, especially children?

 

[aspen]

I wasn't talking about my mother or the church.
I was talking about you.
Do you have any compassion for people, especially children?

Do you have any ability to assume responsibility for your actions?

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you have any ability to assume responsibility for your actions?

LOL
You mean when he was 9, or now?

 

[aspen]

Btw, the numbers on the envelope were there to keep track of donations, not people

 

[GodsGrace]

Btw, the numbers on the envelope were there to keep track of donations, not people

The numbers belonged to a family group.
They were there to know how much each family donated.
It also made people give more knowing they were being tracked.

 

[aspen]

LOL
You mean when he was 9, or now?

I am not surprised a nine year old would decide to keep a dime - I might have done the same when I was a kid. Defending your nine year old actions and expecting others to believe that you had the right to steal the money and that people who were holding you responsible were somehow wrong to do so? Makes me wonder if he is still 9!

 

[aspen]

The numbers belonged to a family group.
They were there to know how much each family donated.
It also made people give more knowing they were being tracked.

Tax records