Saved By Fear?

[OzSpen]

Where abouts?
My granddaughter lives there.

Rollo,

I gave you a link in #233 to show the connection between Augustine's theology and Calvin's.

Does your granddaughter live in the region of Africa, bordering the Mediterranean Sea? Augustine was from the Kingdom of Numidia (incorporates some of Tunisia, Algeria and Libya today).

If you want more info, Google "Augustine's theology in Calvin's theology" or some search like that.

Oz

 

[Stranger]

If a man could accept or reject it means he has A FREE WILL to do just that.

It means man has a will. Man has a will that must accept or reject salvation. How free is that?

Stranger

 

[APAK]

There always seems to be a dilemma when
predestination is brought up.

Yet if we examine Scripture closely...
Men DO have the Liberty to CHOOSE...
To hear, to believe, to keep hearing, to walk away.

So what exactly are they "believing"?
The WORD of God, which is Simply;
Knowledge....not understanding of the knowledge.

And, Our All knowing God, who knew us BEFORE we were born, BEFORE we know of ourselves......WHAT?

KNEW the thoughts in our hearts.
He KNEW every thought, every thing about us that we would do, choose, like, dislike, say, think....Everything.

God does not randomly and Unconditionally CALL MANY ... put things in the PATH of MANY to come and Hear His Word.

He CALLS MANY....not ALL.

So why didn't He ONLY call a FEW, since He will only have a FEW that will CHOOSE Him, and He already knows this from the foundation of the earth.?

I believe....just as BEFORE we were born as now...some have not yet heard...and some just don't get it .... sit on the fence post, being a respectable person, kind, generous, follows all the "rules", doesn't cause grief among men....but yet? Has never delved into the Word of God...sort of like, eh, maybe there is a God...but "IDK", so I just try to do what is right.

The "unknowing", the "unsure", are reachable IMO. The adamant against God, I believe were those that no way would believe, as God knew us before we were created.

Inanutshell- predestination is God already knowing our Choices, and Him calling US.
And then IN OUR OWN natural WE calling ON Him to Confess our Belief IN Him.

Nothing "NEW" under the sun. The whole scenario has already occurred....We simply WAIT to SEE it unfold and come to pass.

God Bless,
Taken

Taken:
we call on him...there are many, many ways this happens....this is the preparation of the heart before the gospel hearing...the soil has to be prepared to accept the seed and grow....and not be trodden on underfoot....
My testimony in brief, was when I already knew ABOUT God and Christ and the gospel....One day inside me my heart wanted to know God in a personal way...DON'T ask me how it happened because I do not know...I was a keen student of mathematics and physics.. I loved astronomy...I just finished work and ready to leave for the house. I was waiting on someone else.. During this time, I considerd God as ebibh infinite and undefined although something said to me he is defined and knowable....I carried these thoughts with me...later after a few weeks a work mate asked me if I wanted to know God in a person way...he wanted to speak with me at my home...I was a little hesitant BUT something inside me said let him speak to you....I did and the gospel was told in a more personal way.....I accepted CHrist will all my heart and hours later I was on fire for scripture and the knowledge of him.....

Good talk brother...like it a lot

APAK

 

[GodsGrace]

free will to speak our piece...

Right!

 

[GodsGrace]

It means man has a will. Man has a will that must accept or reject salvation. How free is that?

Stranger

Is there a third choice?
What do you understand a free will to be?

 

[Stranger]

The other dimension was stated clearly in 1 Peter 1:1-2 (ESV): 'To those who are elect ... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father'.

Not elect according to the will of God but elect according to God's foreknowledge.

Do you get it? It's nothing like a Calvinistic view of double predestination - supralapsarian.

Oz

Foreknowledge simply means God knows them who are His. How is that another dimension? It simply proves that God elects.

Stranger

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Rollo,

I gave you a link in #233 to show the connection between Augustine's theology and Calvin's.

Does your granddaughter live in the region of Africa, bordering the Mediterranean Sea? Augustine was from the Kingdom of Numidia (incorporates some of Tunisia, Algeria and Libya today).

If you want more info, Google "Augustine's theology in Calvin's theology" or some search like that.

Oz

Well, you don't have to be so mean about it

 

[Stranger]

Human beings DO have free will and it started with the first 2 human beings. God gave them choice. Even this Calvinistic site (Got Questions?) agrees with me:

God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be free, they had to have a choice (Why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden?).​

The will of God is that all human beings have free will to make all kinds of choices in this world. I chose to eat ice-cream tonight for supper. I could have chosen not to eat it. I chose to watch TV rugby league today. I chose not to gamble on the horses last Saturday. I chose not to drink alcohol when I went to the tavern for lunch on Wed.

However, when it comes to worship of God and salvation, salvation is from the Lord. But human beings have choices in this regard, exemplified by verses such as:

• Joshua 24:

14 ‘Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshipped beyond the River Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.’

16 Then the people answered, ‘Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! (NIV, emphasis added).​

• Acts 16:31 (NIV): '‘[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’

God provides salvation that is available to all (Titus 2:11), but people have to choose to serve the Lord. This is not Pelagianism, it is biblical Christianity.

Oz

Man does not have free will. Man will is acted upon by other forces. In the Garden of Eden it was acted upon by God, by the serpent, by the commandement. Man has a will that he executes. But forces outside of himself direct that will.

Only God has free will.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Foreknowledge simply means God knows them who are His. How is that another dimension? It simply proves that God elects.

Stranger

Foreknowledge means to know something before it happens.
God didnt need foreknowledge to know who are His. He would naturally know who He wants to save.

It means that God foreknew Who Would Choose HIM.

 

[aspen]

The issue of culpablity without freewill is problematic.

 

[Stranger]

Is there a third choice?
What do you understand a free will to be?

Are you asking cause you don't know? No, there is no third choice. Man is placed in a situation where he must decide one way or another.

I find it unusual that you ask met that. I have said many times what 'free will ' is. Only God has free will. His will is not acted upon by any other force. Nothing influences God's will but Him. His will is free. He does as He wills. Yours is not.

Stranger

 

[aspen]

I used to believe in Molinism

 

[Stranger]

Foreknowledge means to know something before it happens.
God didnt need foreknowledge to know who are His. He would naturally know who He wants to save.

It means that God foreknew Who Would Choose HIM.

Chapter and verse.

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

How free is that?

You have a choice dont you, God never forced salvation on us, it is our option, it is our best option, you have teh free will to choose.

 

[aspen]

Foreknowledge means to know something before it happens.
God didnt need foreknowledge to know who are His. He would naturally know who He wants to save.

It means that God foreknew Who Would Choose HIM.

So he created people for Hell?

 

[aspen]

You have a choice dont you, God never forced salvation on us, it is our option, it is our best option, you have teh free will to choose.

1 choice doesnt equal freewill. My dog can make choices but he does not have freewill

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you asking cause you don't know? No, there is no third choice. Man is placed in a situation where he must decide one way or another.

I find it unusual that you ask met that. I have said many times what 'free will ' is. Only God has free will. His will is not acted upon by any other force. Nothing influences God's will but Him. His will is free. He does as He wills. Yours is not.

Stranger

No. I do believe a problem here is your understanding of expressions.
Free will in a philosophical sense, and free will in the biblical sense.
Iow, the ability to choose,,,to make a moral choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

So he created people for Hell?

I didn't say that!

 

[mjrhealth]

Chapter and verse.

Stranger

1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[OzSpen]

There always seems to be a dilemma when
predestination is brought up.

Yet if we examine Scripture closely...
Men DO have the Liberty to CHOOSE...
To hear, to believe, to keep hearing, to walk away.

Taken,

I am not speaking about choice in regard to a burger vs fish and chips. This is choice in regard to salvation.

The freeing of the will to accept or reject salvation is clearly stated in Titus 2:11, 'God’s grace has now appeared. By his grace, God offers to save all people' (NIRV). The NIRV is the NIV for a lower level of literacy. It seems to be parallel with the NLT.

So, God frees the will of all human beings to say yea or nay to the Gospel of salvation when it is preached or taught.

Further evidence of the freed will is implied by the admonitions to people to turn to God. See Prov. 1:23; Isa.31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; Acts 3:19;
Prov 1:23,Joel 2:28, Ezek 18:27-30, Isa 32:15, Acts 2:36-38,Zech 12:10 ...

The call to repent has a similar connotation: 1 Kings 8:47; Matt 32:1; Mk 1;15; Lk 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30). The call to believe has the same implication of the freedom to choose to respond or reject the call. See: 2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23.

So what exactly are they "believing"?
The WORD of God, which is Simply;
Knowledge....not understanding of the knowledge.

Scripture answers those questions: 'Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ' (Rom 10:17 NIV).

Oz