Saved By Fear?

[OzSpen]

I have always said God gave us a 'will'. Why do you ask questions that assume I have not. Go back and reread.

Is that a human will that is free in relation to salvation - free to accept or reject salvation?

 

[Dcopymope]

You provide no biblical evidence but provide your own opinion.

I suggest you check out what the Scriptures indicate. See: 'Are demons and fallen angels the same thing?'

None of those scriptures actually state that demons and angels are the same, or where demons even come from. However we know a hell of a lot more about angels, enough for me to dismiss them as being the unclean spirits described in the new testament, the old testament included. When Jesus met the man in the tomb that was possessed with a ton of demons, they begged Jesus to not just send them away into the "abyss" (the word used in the book of Luke) but instead to send them into pigs.

(Luke 8:26-33) "¶ And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee. {27} And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs. {28} When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. {29} (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) {30} And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. {31} And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep. {32} And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them. {33} Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked."

Now this actually reveals quite a bit about the nature of these "unclean spirits" versus that of angels. Real angels don't have to possess anything to manifest in the flesh or reveal themselves. If an angel wants to reveal themselves or manifest in this plain of existence, they just do it. Throughout the Bible they often appear as "men", some more radiant than others, the angel at Christs tomb being a shining example.

(Matthew 28:1-8) "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. {2} And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. {3} His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: {4} And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. {5} And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. {6} He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. {7} And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. {8} And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word."

So if Jesus were to cast them out, assuming they would have a reason to even want to possess someone else's body to start with, they have nothing to worry because they have their own bodies anyway. These demons however are terribly concerned about being cast out, they would much rather possess a pig. Nothing about the two entities behavior even implies a resemblance. They are described as polar opposites.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger,

There was another dimension declared in 1 Peter 1:1-2 (ESV):

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you'.

This is NOT unconditional election.

Oz

What other dimension?

Election does not function on 'conditional' or 'unconditional'. It functions simply on the 'will' of God.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Is that a human will that is free in relation to salvation - free to accept or reject salvation?

Man does not have free will. Man has a will that must accept or reject salvation.

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

Man does not have free will. Man has a will that must accept or reject salvation.

that is free will. like telling your kids, dont put your hand in the fire you will get burnt. It is our choice, God made the decision easy enough, "choose Life".

 

[GodsGrace]

You say we aren't predestined, but Paul states otherwise. Predestination is supposed to come first in the order of business according to Paul. Whoever God predestined he also called, whoever he called he also justified, and whoever he justified, them he also glorified. I think the confusion is in how our freedom of choice can be used and when it can be used. To say otherwise is to claim that humanity can just freely choose God without God choosing them first. This all depends on how you define predestination.

I believe you're quoting Romans 8:30
Why not start with Romans 8:29 ??

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

You can't pick and choose your verses, they have to be in context.
God FOREKNEW who would pick HIM, He predestined these people to be conformed to the image of His Son.

The predestination is referring to the METHOD by which those who pick God would be saved, it does not refer to individual salvation of persons.

What you believe goes against every biblical idea.
If God desires all to be saved, as 1 Timothy tell us, why does He not just save everyone???
1 Timothy 2:3-4
Do you suppose Paul was totally confused in what he was saying?
When preaching, was Jesus speaking to EVERYONE, or was He just speaking to these predestined persons you speak of?

Can it be that God desires that all men be saved but there is a condition and that condition is that WE have to choose HIM??
John 3:16 is simple and to the point...

John 3:16-21
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

In every biblical writing you find that men are judged by their deeds and by belief in God. Nowhere does it say that God chooses who will be saved, only HOW they will be saved. THIS was predestined.

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Again, it depends on US as to who will be saved.
What kind of a God would choose some for salvation and some for hell?

 

[GodsGrace]

Rollo,

That's why some of us give up communicating on forums like this. I'm at that stage.

Oz

All evil requires to succeed is for the good to do nothing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man does not have free will. Man has a will that must accept or reject salvation.

Stranger

If a man could accept or reject it means he has A FREE WILL to do just that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please forgive this down-to-earth example. Before Dad owned sugar cane farms, he earned his bread & butter for the family by cutting burnt & sticky sugar cane, carrying the stalks on his shoulder to the tram on the railway line or to the truck to take to the derrick where it was hoisted onto tram trucks to take on railway lines to the sugar mill.

Oxford dictionaries defines 'derrick' as: 'A kind of crane with a movable pivoted arm for moving heavy weights, especially on a ship' (2018. s.v. derrick). The derrick near our farm was a crane that moved cane from our truck (using slings under the cane) to the tram.

So, the means Dad used to get the sugar cane to the mill for crushing into sugar was a man carrying the cane stalks to the truck, the truck and the tram.

Likewise, the means the one God uses for people to come to Jesus is by the Father. It is an unseen enabling by the Father that makes salvation possible. I haven't seen such an action in person but on the authority of God, this is how salvation happens through the Father.

Oz

Good. I know a more simple one which I know you agree with...
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has always made Himself be known, before He even revealed Himself to Abraham and the Hebrews. His existence could be known through His creation and the wonder persons had by seeing what was around them in nature and in the heavens. Who could not look at a star and wonder how it got there? Man has always believed in a higher power, in God. The American Indian did not have a bible and yet he believed in a spirit world. Tribes in So. America and Africa do not have the bible and yet they pray to a "god".

Now we have the bible. Now we know the mystery which has been explained to us...salvation in Christ. We have more proof than ever that God exists and that He draws us to His Son.

It's up to us to accept His Son. THIS is what the bible teaches. A loving God that wants all the world to be saved. The only condition is to believe and to obey to the best of our ability.

Any other belief is not biblical but a heresy created by one man.
Some believe the bible.
Some believe a man.

 

[mjrhealth]

Any other belief is not biblical but a heresy created by one man.
Some believe the bible.
Some believe a man.

and some believe God,

His greatest gift He ever gave to us after Christ is His Spirit,

Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn_5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

it is His Spirit that marks those who are His just as in the end when those who do not accept Him will bare the mark of the antichrist.

 

[twinc]

Good. I know a more simple one which I know you agree with...
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has always made Himself be known, before He even revealed Himself to Abraham and the Hebrews. His existence could be known through His creation and the wonder persons had by seeing what was around them in nature and in the heavens. Who could not look at a star and wonder how it got there? Man has always believed in a higher power, in God. The American Indian did not have a bible and yet he believed in a spirit world. Tribes in So. America and Africa do not have the bible and yet they pray to a "god".

Now we have the bible. Now we know the mystery which has been explained to us...salvation in Christ. We have more proof than ever that God exists and that He draws us to His Son.

It's up to us to accept His Son. THIS is what the bible teaches. A loving God that wants all the world to be saved. The only condition is to believe and to obey to the best of our ability.

Any other belief is not biblical but a heresy created by one man.
Some believe the bible.
Some believe a man.

so here we have it, what we have been warned against, accepting another gospel imho - twinc

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Rollo,

That's why some of us give up communicating on forums like this. I'm at that stage.

Oz

Don't do that.
Just enjoy the scenery.
As Christians, we should be able to find joy wherever we are.
Paul and Silas did.

 

[GodsGrace]

so here we have it, what we have been warned against, accepting another gospel imho - twinc

You, my dear sir, have the other gospel!
If I'm not mistaken, John Calvin, not the best of persons, came on this Earth in about 1,500 AD.
Are we to suppose that the teachers before him we're all wrong.?
Minds much much better than his did not teach predestination.
And this is because the written word of God, including Paul's writings, did not teach this abominable doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't do that.
Just enjoy the scenery.
As Christians, we should be able to find joy wherever we are.
Paul and Silas did.

How is it joyful for anyone to hear that God chooses those who will be saved and He chooses those that will go to hell?

What kind of a God is that?

 

[GodsGrace]

and some believe God,

His greatest gift He ever gave to us after Christ is His Spirit,

Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn_5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

it is His Spirit that marks those who are His just as in the end when those who do not accept Him will bare the mark of the antichrist.

What is the water in the above?

 

[OzSpen]

What other dimension?

Election does not function on 'conditional' or 'unconditional'. It functions simply on the 'will' of God.

Stranger

The other dimension was stated clearly in 1 Peter 1:1-2 (ESV): 'To those who are elect ... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father'.

Not elect according to the will of God but elect according to God's foreknowledge.

Do you get it? It's nothing like a Calvinistic view of double predestination - supralapsarian.

Oz

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How is it joyful for anyone to hear that God chooses those who will be saved and He chooses those that will go to hell?

What kind of a God is that?

Just sit back in the peanut gallery and watch the show.
You don't have to get involved and get stressed and depressed.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What is the water in the above?

It's called rain.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's called rain.

Lol know all about that.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Lol know all about that.

Yeah, you do now that I told you.
Don't worry when you see it, it doesn't bite.