Saved By Fear?

[GodsGrace]

Now that I really think about it, I don't see why it would have to say "spiritual death" since the "spiritual death" isn't technically supposed to occur until the "second death" in the very end, where both the body and the spirit will be destroyed.

But assuming they really became "spiritually dead" the moment they ate from the tree, if this is really the case, then all God would have to do to make them "alive" again is to grant them access to the tree of life. This isn't what happened of course, but if he did, then all would have been fine, would it not? Or is this assumption wrong as well, and the spirit in fact never actually dies until the time appointed for it to die per the scriptures for the wicked? These are some of the reasons why I don't believe God was referring to "spiritual death" at all, but strictly to the death of the flesh. The spirit that dies will be decided on judgement day.

You're correct D. Adam and Eve died physically also! But not at the moment of the eating; at the moment of the eating they died spiritually, IOW, theìr relationship with God died. Before they were blessed and were given the Garden to take care of -- God allowed Adam to name the animals. Names were important in the O.T. (that's why Abraham's name was changed). After they ate, God removed them from the Garden because He was disappointed in them, and He placed all those curses on them in Genesis 3:16-19.

But, yes, they also eventually died physically because when God created them they had the gift of immortality which they then lost. God put Cherubim angels at the entrance to the Garden to keep man from eating of the Tree of Life because if he had, he would again have lived forever in his sinful state. This would have been a sad state of affairs...murderers living forever, child abusers living forever, etc. Better their life should come to an end!

As to spiritual death...
There are three types of death:
Physical
Spiritual
Eternal

We die physically.
We are dead spiritually when we do not know God -- when our spirit is not connected to His.
We die eternally at the final judgement when we become lost for eternity as per God's judgement. Some refer to this as the Lake of Fire.

 

[twinc]

You're correct D. Adam and Eve died physically also! But not at the moment of the eating; at the moment of the eating they died spiritually, IOW, theìr relationship with God died. Before they were blessed and were given the Garden to take care of -- God allowed Adam to name the animals. Names were important in the O.T. (that's why Abraham's name was changed). After they ate, God removed them from the Garden because He was disappointed in them, and He placed all those curses on them in Genesis 3:16-19.

But, yes, they also eventually died physically because when God created them they had the gift of immortality which they then lost. God put Cherubim angels at the entrance to the Garden to keep man from eating of the Tree of Life because if he had, he would again have lived forever in his sinful state. This would have been a sad state of affairs...murderers living forever, child abusers living forever, etc. Better their life should come to an end!

As to spiritual death...
There are three types of death:
Physical
Spiritual
Eternal

We die physically.
We are dead spiritually when we do not know God -- when our spirit is not connected to His.
We die eternally at the final judgement when we become lost for eternity as per God's judgement. Some refer to this as the Lake of Fire.

you have concluded all this by yourself or on the saying or suggestion of some other just as lost unlike you claiming inspiration and guidance by the Holy Spirit or are you also claiming this - without going into long and lengthy useless tirades just accept and grasp that matter has been dematerialised so just ponder what 'the fall' is really all about - btw I read somewhere that an off shoot related to the tree of life has been found - twinc

 

[Dcopymope]

You're correct D. Adam and Eve died physically also! But not at the moment of the eating; at the moment of the eating they died spiritually, IOW, theìr relationship with God died. Before they were blessed and were given the Garden to take care of -- God allowed Adam to name the animals. Names were important in the O.T. (that's why Abraham's name was changed). After they ate, God removed them from the Garden because He was disappointed in them, and He placed all those curses on them in Genesis 3:16-19.

But, yes, they also eventually died physically because when God created them they had the gift of immortality which they then lost. God put Cherubim angels at the entrance to the Garden to keep man from eating of the Tree of Life because if he had, he would again have lived forever in his sinful state. This would have been a sad state of affairs...murderers living forever, child abusers living forever, etc. Better their life should come to an end!

As to spiritual death...
There are three types of death:
Physical
Spiritual
Eternal

We die physically.
We are dead spiritually when we do not know God -- when our spirit is not connected to His.
We die eternally at the final judgement when we become lost for eternity as per God's judgement. Some refer to this as the Lake of Fire.

So, if "you shall surely die" means separation from God, then why are they still having a conversation with him immediately after? At what point is this 'connection' with God supposed to occur, before or after Jesus Christs Resurrection? We still see examples of God himself dwelling with sinners in some capacity throughout the old testament. He dwelt with Noah, with Abraham, Jacob, Moses, with his actual presence with the Jews in the wilderness being a shining example. Were the "heroes of the faith" "spiritually dead" in Hebrews 11? Did they "know God"? If "spiritual death" means separation from God, then why is Satan, a spirit being, still being summoned by God for recurring face to face conversations with God in the book of Job? That relationship dynamic should have been severed the moment iniquity was found within him. In context, the way I understand the Eden event is simple; God told them they will die, and made sure of it by denying them access to the tree of life. "You shall surely die" somehow meaning "separation" does not fit with the narrative of the nature of Gods relationship with the Jews throughout the rest of the Bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

you have concluded all this by yourself or on the saying or suggestion of some other just as lost unlike you claiming inspiration and guidance by the Holy Spirit or are you also claiming this - without going into long and lengthy useless tirades just accept and grasp that matter has been dematerialised so just ponder what 'the fall' is really all about - btw I read somewhere that an off shoot related to the tree of life has been found - twinc

I don't conclude anything by myself.
I don't even claim inspiration by the Holy Spirit.
Everything I'm telling @Decopymope is accepted Christian theology.
Every church I know of agrees with what I've said.

I must say, twinc, that your ideas are rather strange.
I'll answer your post on the Adam and Eve thread tomorrow.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, if "you shall surely die" means separation from God, then why are they still having a conversation with him immediately after? At what point is this 'connection' with God supposed to occur, before or after Jesus Christs Resurrection? We still see examples of God himself dwelling with sinners in some capacity throughout the old testament. He dwelt with Noah, with Abraham, Jacob, Moses, with his actual presence with the Jews in the wilderness being a shining example. Were the "heroes of the faith" "spiritually dead" in Hebrews 11? Did they "know God"? If "spiritual death" means separation from God, then why is Satan, a spirit being, still being summoned by God for recurring face to face conversations with God in the book of Job? That relationship dynamic should have been severed the moment iniquity was found within him. In context, the way I understand the Eden event is simple; God told them they will die, and made sure of it by denying them access to the tree of life. "You shall surely die" somehow meaning "separation" does not fit with the narrative of the nature of Gods relationship with the Jews throughout the rest of the Bible.

What do you mean?
It doesn't mean that we are all spiritually dead till the end of time.
When we become born again, we are spiritually alive once more.
Remember, Jesus said we must be born again.
John 3:3

If Adam had not eaten of the fruit, we would have been born spiritually alive with no need to be born again.

 

[twinc]

What do you mean?
It doesn't mean that we are all spiritually dead till the end of time.
When we become born again, we are spiritually alive once more.
Remember, Jesus said we must be born again.
John 3:3

If Adam had not eaten of the fruit, we would have been born spiritually alive with no need to be born again.

way, way off track but claiming to be on track most are even derailed - we are indeed spiritually dead until we accept and realise that matter has been dematerialised for just like Adam and Eve we are mesmerised and enchanted with matter and are materialists claiming spirituality - twinc

 

[GodsGrace]

way, way off track but claiming to be on track most are even derailed - we are indeed spiritually dead until we accept and realise that matter has been dematerialised for just like Adam and Eve we are mesmerised and enchanted with matter and are materialists claiming spirituality - twinc

No twinc.
It's like Sting said,,,
We are spirits in a material world.

 

[twinc]

No twinc.
It's like Sting said,,,
We are spirits in a material world.

no we are not - that is only a half truth - what we need is the whole truth and nothing but the truth - we do not live in a material world for there is no matter no matter who says otherwise - its existence is a bluff, or else we are materialists no matter how spiritual we fancy ourselves as being - twinc

 

[aspen]

I don't conclude anything by myself.
I don't even claim inspiration by the Holy Spirit.
Everything I'm telling @Decopymope is accepted Christian theology.
Every church I know of agrees with what I've said.

I must say, twinc, that your ideas are rather strange.
I'll answer your post on the Adam and Eve thread tomorrow.

Yeah, I think it is pretty standard. Some people can’t engage is a discussion without disagreement, I guess.

 

[twinc]

Yeah, I think it is pretty standard. Some people can’t engage is a discussion without disagreement, I guess.

Yeah, I think it is pretty standard. Some people can’t engage is a discussion without disagreement, I guess.

I cant disagree with that -twinc

 

[Dcopymope]

What do you mean?
It doesn't mean that we are all spiritually dead till the end of time.
When we become born again, we are spiritually alive once more.
Remember, Jesus said we must be born again.
John 3:3

(John 3:1-8) "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: {2} The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. {3} Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {4} Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? {5} Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. {6} That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. {7} Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. {8} The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

So Jesus says we must be "born again" of the spirit and water to enter the kingdom of God. Paul states that to be in the presence of God, our earthly form must be transformed into the heavenly form prepared by God. So I take it that Moses and Elijah was "born again" since they are already in Gods presence..........or are they still "spiritually dead"? Does this "born again" experience occur only through Jesus or is it something that can be done arbitrarily by God as the transfiguration strongly indicates?

If Adam had not eaten of the fruit, we would have been born spiritually alive with no need to be born again.

If that be the case, then God screwed up royally by putting the tree there to begin with. All he had to do was give us the tree of life and all would have been fine....or would we have been fine? Was there in fact an ulterior motive for God planting the tree beyond the obvious intention of just giving humanity a "choice"? Would such a lovable God give Adam and Eve a "choice" to be "spiritually alive" or "spiritually dead", especially him knowing they were going to choose the latter? That doesn't add up to me. It doesn't explain why Satan exists. Did he give Satan a "choice" to be "spiritually alive" or "dead", or was the iniquity that makes one "spiritually dead" simply "found within him" as Ezekiel states? To me, Satan's fall into iniquity explains why he really put the tree there, and it wasn't to just give humanity a "choice". If he never planted the tree, it wouldn't have changed a thing because iniquity was going to be found within Adam and Eve sooner or later just like it did within Satan. Adam and Eve may have been made "spiritually alive" as you put it, but that wouldn't make them impervious to sin, and God knew it.

 

[GodsGrace]

no we are not - that is only a half truth - what we need is the whole truth and nothing but the truth - we do not live in a material world for there is no matter no matter who says otherwise - its existence is a bluff, or else we are materialists no matter how spiritual we fancy ourselves as being - twinc

So are you a gnostic?
Are you a scientologist?
What religion are you?
I notice that you haven't written Christian under your avatar.
So are you here to convince us that our material house doesn't really exist?
The car I drive doesn't really exist?
Do we not have a body?
What about a soul...Do we have a soul?
Do we have a spirit that answers to God or is that also a bluff?

So you're trying to change those on this forum from Christian to some other religion?

 

[GodsGrace]

So Jesus says we must be "born again" of the spirit and water to enter the kingdom of God. Paul states that to be in the presence of God, our earthly form must be transformed into the heavenly form prepared by God. So I take it that Moses and Elijah was "born again" since they are already in Gods presence..........or are they still "spiritually dead"? Does this "born again" experience occur only through Jesus or is it something that can be done arbitrarily by God as the transfiguration strongly indicates?

D, You ask very deep questions.
Yes, we must be born again to belong to the K of G while here on earth and also to enter the Kingdom of Heaven (or God) once we are dead. When we enter the Kingdom of Heaven, we will put on a new imperishable body. We will be transformed, as you stated.
1 Corinthians 15:53

Moses and Elijah were most definitely born again; they indeed had the spirit of God within them, which is what being born again means. Being spiritually dead just means not having the spirit of God within us. Atheists, for instance, do not have the spirit of God since they don't even believe in God --- so they are not born again. (Jesus used the term, born of above).

When one is born again, he naturally comes to know Jesus as his friend and savior and Lord. Then you say: is it something that can be done arbitrarily by God as the transfiguration strongly indicates?
God does not make persons become born again arbitrarily.. THE PERSON must want to be born again - God never forces us to do anything against our will.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
One must, of his own free will, love God, through the Son who died for us, so as not to perish.

I don't understand why you think the transfiguration strongly indicates that God can arbitrarily choose who will be born again (or saved).

If that be the case, then God screwed up royally by putting the tree there to begin with. All he had to do was give us the tree of life and all would have been fine....or would we have been fine? Was there in fact an ulterior motive for God planting the tree beyond the obvious intention of just giving humanity a "choice"? Would such a lovable God give Adam and Eve a "choice" to be "spiritually alive" or "spiritually dead", especially him knowing they were going to choose the latter? That doesn't add up to me. It doesn't explain why Satan exists. Did he give Satan a "choice" to be "spiritually alive" or "dead", or was the iniquity that makes one "spiritually dead" simply "found within him" as Ezekiel states? To me, Satan's fall into iniquity explains why he really put the tree there, and it wasn't to just give humanity a "choice". If he never planted the tree, it wouldn't have changed a thing because iniquity was going to be found within Adam and Eve sooner or later just like it did within Satan. Adam and Eve may have been made "spiritually alive" as you put it, but that wouldn't make them impervious to sin, and God knew it.

Now you wander into the realm of mysteries.
We can know what God did, but we cannot know why He did it, unless the bible specifically states the reason.

The story of Adam and Eve tells us that God created everything including man.
It tells us that God gave man free will to make choices. It tells us that through temptation, man fell into sin by disobeying God. It tells us that there's an evil force (satan) that tempts us.

This is basically all we know. We don't know why God made man knowing he would end up sinning. We really do not know how satan came about and why he's allowed to work his evil. We don't know why God allows evil to exist. These are all questions that cannot be answered. We just have to trust that God is a God of love
1 John 4:8, that He loves His creation, John 3:16, and that we have the choice to choose Him or to choose the evil one. There's no middle ground, we're either serving God or we're serving satan.

I've been searching for answers myself for many years. There are no answers to the questions you ask.

 

[Dcopymope]

D, You ask very deep questions.
Yes, we must be born again to belong to the K of G while here on earth and also to enter the Kingdom of Heaven (or God) once we are dead. When we enter the Kingdom of Heaven, we will put on a new imperishable body. We will be transformed, as you stated.
1 Corinthians 15:53

Moses and Elijah were most definitely born again; they indeed had the spirit of God within them, which is what being born again means. Being spiritually dead just means not having the spirit of God within us. Atheists, for instance, do not have the spirit of God since they don't even believe in God --- so they are not born again. (Jesus used the term, born of above).

When one is born again, he naturally comes to know Jesus as his friend and savior and Lord. Then you say: is it something that can be done arbitrarily by God as the transfiguration strongly indicates?
God does not make persons become born again arbitrarily.. THE PERSON must want to be born again - God never forces us to do anything against our will.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
One must, of his own free will, love God, through the Son who died for us, so as not to perish.

I don't understand why you think the transfiguration strongly indicates that God can arbitrarily choose who will be born again (or saved).

Well, arbitrarily on account of their faith in him, and not necessarily in Jesus since the transfiguration occured well before his sacrifice. Since Jesus is technically God being "the word", one can say that they technically already knew him, before he became flesh.

Now you wander into the realm of mysteries.
We can know what God did, but we cannot know why He did it, unless the bible specifically states the reason.

The story of Adam and Eve tells us that God created everything including man.
It tells us that God gave man free will to make choices. It tells us that through temptation, man fell into sin by disobeying God. It tells us that there's an evil force (satan) that tempts us.

This is basically all we know. We don't know why God made man knowing he would end up sinning. We really do not know how satan came about and why he's allowed to work his evil. We don't know why God allows evil to exist. These are all questions that cannot be answered. We just have to trust that God is a God of love
1 John 4:8, that He loves His creation, John 3:16, and that we have the choice to choose Him or to choose the evil one. There's no middle ground, we're either serving God or we're serving satan.

I've been searching for answers myself for many years. There are no answers to the questions you ask.

The Bible doesn't specifically state anywhere that "you shall surely die" referred to "spiritual death" or seperation from God either, but many Christians make this assumption. I know from the text that Satan was not created a sinner, but "perfect" until iniquity was found within him, unless we are now going to claim that God is the author of iniquity. From the text, I know he never ate off of a tree for the iniquity to occur, otherwise the text would have said so. So if being made "perfect" or "very good" didn't work out for Gods anointed Cherub, then I don't have a reason to believe it would have for humanity whether there was a tree or not. The real reason why God put the tree there isn't as mysterious as people believe it to be. The problem is that Satan's fall into temptation isn't recognized for the profound story that it truly is.