Saved By Fear?
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Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
God knows, HE has no time limits like us.
Excellent commentary.
And geeze, I simply have to lodge a Complaint with you....LIKE a few others do...
SUCH a LONG POST....whaa, whaa, I will never get those 2 minutes back from reading such a LONG POST....!! LOL
Adam never had such a spiritual surgical operation performed on him.
APAK
This part, I would waver on...
There are things in Scripture that apply to ALL men, MANY men, ONLY a FEW men, and sometimes ONLY "one" man.
The OT, gives us cause to really dig, to see WHO and HOW a man was SAVED and BORN AGAIN....
Although nothing indicated Adam was BORN of water, as applies to all other men.....
YET we find...Something that indicates Adam was saved and born again.
Luke 3:38
....Adam, which was the "son of" God.
Who, is a "son of" God, but he Who has received the "Seed of" God?
And another "one" man application; John the Baptist, born of God, before he was 'born of water', a natural birth from his mother.
Scripture says Jesus, IS the quickening Spirit, which is to say, HE IS the one who; by His Power, to enter a mans heart, and by Him being the Seed of God...yes, He: Jesus does the birthing of a mans spirit, with the Seed of God, Power of God and Authority of God.
And Jesus himself said; He will quickened WHOM He "WILL". And ... from Scriptural reading, and Spiritual wisdom and understanding, Jesus also quickened WHOM He "WILL", "WHEN" He "WILLS".
Hope you don't get eyestrain reading my long post....LOL...
God Bless you Brother,
Taken
Could say baptism but that would be a guess, that part He has never explained to me, but when He does ill answer you. Till than it will just be my own understanding.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Free will is an illusion of ego
1. Pre-Fall we had the choice of choosing between good things
2. Afterwards we could only choose between bad choices.
3. With Christ, we are headed back to the Garden - intimacy with God, which requires us to focus on loving God and neighbor, not wasting time assigning meaningless opinions to God’s good creation.
Perhaps you can call the choice to love or withhold love as freewill, but I see it as practicing our sanctification.
aspen: Actually it is a composition of years of learning...yes the revelation comes both from other believers and the spirit of Christ.. the form of continual learning and refining all the time.
Bless you
APAK
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I think he is serious. George MacDonald / CS Lewis would agree
OzSpen
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FC,
If God unconditionally elects some people to salvation and He made that decision before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-5), there is absolutely no point in evangelism.
I talked this over with a Presbyterian Minister who believes in TULIP. I asked: Why don't you do outreach evangelism in your city? His response was: "God will bring them in". By the way, I used to preach in his church.
Matt 28:19-20 should be relegated to the irrelevant and unnecessary if this view is maintained. I am not convinced that is the case.
Oz
Number two is wrong.
Concupisence, or the sin nature, does not force us to wrong, we only Tend toward wrong, but we can also choose the right. Even atheists could be very moral person's.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Exactly.
So why harrass the goats? If this is as close as they get to heaven, its only Biblical for them to eat drink and be merry.
Rollo Tamasi
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OzSpen
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Excellent question! These are some of my thoughts:
- God would not want to save those who are hostile towards him on earth and would not bow the knee. They wouldn't want to be in His presence, so they CHOOSE to reject him. Remember Christopher Hitchens' book, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.
- God's saving rebels who don't believe in Him would be like feeding seagulls with rocks.
- People who love to whoop it up in all kinds of sin wouldn't want that behaviour to be stopped by a dictatorial 'God' who knows better than they do.
- There is too much of 'my way' in our culture and 'I don't want to do it God's way'.
aspen:
I know you meant that a child of God cannot stop loving others, even though at times there is some historical record of hurt or discord against someone, lodged and stored from inside of our soulish mind that always wants to complain and protest that love is not justified....the will of the heart eventually wins out....even if it takes years..
Yes I agree, true free-will is a myth....and I'll not in league with any writer or philosopher for saying so..I get this info for scripture and the spirit within me..I hate being labeled or pinned into a camps of thought....except if it is what God desires..
I like your point #3 in particular....restoration is the plan, indeed, with love of our Father in all those that receive him with a contrite heart, and yield our spiritual will, in alignment to his will....and we walk with Christ to this goal of restoration
Bless you,
APAK
Rollo Tamasi
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Ecclesiastes 8:15;
"So I commend the enjoyment of life, because there is nothing better for a person under the sun than to eat and drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany them in their toil all the days of the life God has given them under the sun."
There always seems to be a dilemma when
predestination is brought up.
Yet if we examine Scripture closely...
Men DO have the Liberty to CHOOSE...
To hear, to believe, to keep hearing, to walk away.
So what exactly are they "believing"?
The WORD of God, which is Simply;
Knowledge....not understanding of the knowledge.
And, Our All knowing God, who knew us BEFORE we were born, BEFORE we know of ourselves......WHAT?
KNEW the thoughts in our hearts.
He KNEW every thought, every thing about us that we would do, choose, like, dislike, say, think....Everything.
God does not randomly and Unconditionally CALL MANY ... put things in the PATH of MANY to come and Hear His Word.
He CALLS MANY....not ALL.
So why didn't He ONLY call a FEW, since He will only have a FEW that will CHOOSE Him, and He already knows this from the foundation of the earth.?
I believe....just as BEFORE we were born as now...some have not yet heard...and some just don't get it .... sit on the fence post, being a respectable person, kind, generous, follows all the "rules", doesn't cause grief among men....but yet? Has never delved into the Word of God...sort of like, eh, maybe there is a God...but "IDK", so I just try to do what is right.
The "unknowing", the "unsure", are reachable IMO. The adamant against God, I believe were those that no way would believe, as God knew us before we were created.
Inanutshell- predestination is God already knowing our Choices, and Him calling US.
And then IN OUR OWN natural WE calling ON Him to Confess our Belief IN Him.
Nothing "NEW" under the sun. The whole scenario has already occurred....We simply WAIT to SEE it unfold and come to pass.
God Bless,
Taken
Rollo Tamasi
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