Who is worthy to open the book?

[VictoryinJesus]

Why did John weep for one to be found to open the book and the seven seals? Why want the seven seals loosed?

Revelation 5:1-9
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. [2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? [3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. [4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. [5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. [6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. [7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. [8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. [9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

What makes the Lamb worthy to open the book and to loose the seven seals?

 

[bbyrd009]

have to get some idea of what the seven seals rep first i guess

 

[VictoryinJesus]

have to get some idea of what the seven seals rep first i guess

Agree. Curious as to why John wept for one to be found worthy to open the book and loose the seven seals? What does "loose" mean? To unleash?? Daniel has a different response, or are the responses similar?

Daniel 7:25-28
[25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. [27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. [28] Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

 

[amadeus]

have to get some idea of what the seven seals rep first i guess

Yes, that is a real question to which probably some here will have an answer if not The answer.

 

[amadeus]

@VictoryinJesus
Within the past few months I was slightly involved on another forum in discussion about Rev 5:5ff, but the specific question was on the difference between the Lion and the Lamb, both mentioned in that chaper. Most people say both are Jesus, but another opinion was that Jesus was not a Lion. The Lion was supposedly the devil.
Here is a quote from one who was opposed to the more traditional view. It is NOT my view, but it raised some questions in me and perhaps will help others come to understand your question or even result in an answer to your question:

What happens is the plagues destroy the enemies which the angels release...it is not the lion.

In fact the beast will even be destroyed with the lake of fire. One of the four beasts is like a lion.

People please read the entire book of revelation not just pick and choose bits to mean what they want to mean.

Have a look at revelation 4:7. Even the beast that is like a lion bows before the lamb. Only the lamb is worthy.

Reading chapter 5 do the beasts bow down before the lamb? Yes they do. Verse 8!

Lets also look at the marriage supper of the lamb (its not the supper of the lion!) in Revelation 19

Now I would post the entire chapter just to make it really obvious and you will see but at the moment I cant do it here. Am I being remisss in presuming that everyone has a copy of this book?

Who is sitting on the horse and who is he making war with...the beast yea?

Does he go and eat the beast? Well no out of his mouth goes a sharp sword and smites the nations. Does he go and eat the flesh of his enemies. Well no actually it says the fowls eat them. Its not the lion! Who is the beast...

What do we know of lions and lambs, lions eat lambs dont they? That is their nature. If you stuck a lamb in The lions den what would happen. Well it doesnt take a genius to figure that out.

Who is God on the side of...well we know He is the good shepherd right. Is he going to let his sheep and lambs be devoured by the lion? I think not! Is he bigger than any lion? Sure! He can stop the lions mouth.

And even if the lamb is slain (and who exactly kills the lamb?) well guess what the lamb rises again! Does this lamb ever turn into a lion? Um..nowhere in the bible does it say that.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@VictoryinJesus
Within the past few months I was slightly involved on another forum in discussion about Rev 5:5ff, but the specific question was on the difference between the Lion and the Lamb, both mentioned in that chaper. Most people say both are Jesus, but another opinion was that Jesus was not a Lion. The Lion was supposedly the devil.
Here is a quote from one who was opposed to the more traditional view. It is NOT my view, but it raised some questions in me and perhaps will help others come to understand your question or even result in an answer to your question:

Odd passages in the word only God can explain:

1 Kings 13:24-30
[24] And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase. [25] And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt. [26] And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof , he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the Lord : therefore the Lord hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the Lord , which he spake unto him. [27] And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the ass. And they saddled him . [28] And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the ass and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ass. [29] And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him. [30] And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying , Alas, my brother!

Concerning the seven seals, copy and pasted from google.

Upon the "Lamb" opening a seal from the book, a judgment is released or an apocalyptic event occurs. The opening of the first four Seals release The Four Horsemen, each with his own specific mission.[6:1-8] The opening of the fifth seal releases the cries of martyrs for the "word/Wrath of God".[6:9-11] The sixth seal prompts earthquakes and other cataclysmic events.[2][6:12-17] The seventh seal cues seven angelic trumpeters who in turn cue the seven bowl judgments and more cataclysmic events.[8:1-13]

All of Heaven, including John are eager and hopeful and expectant for One to be found worthy...still I have the question of why want the seven seals opened? They are not pleasant, at all. Enough yearning for one to be found worthy that John wept.

 

[amadeus]

Odd passages in the word only God can explain:

1 Kings 13:24-30
[24] And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase. [25] And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt. [26] And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof , he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the Lord : therefore the Lord hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the Lord , which he spake unto him. [27] And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the ass. And they saddled him . [28] And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the ass and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ass. [29] And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him. [30] And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying , Alas, my brother!

On that one, as I understand it, there is no real secret as to why the prophet was killed: He failed to stay in touch with God so as to keep his direction right.

The question that certainly remains for me was why was it a lion that killed him? Also why did the lion NOT kill the ass? Also why did the lion NOT eat the prophet?

Could it be that the dead carcass of the prophet was a type or shadow of the dead body of Jesus on the cross awaiting the Resurrection? But, being only a type or shadow it was not resurrected.

Concerning the seven seals, copy and pasted from google. All of Heaven, including John are eager and hopeful and expectant for One to be found worthy...still I have the question of why want the seven seals opened? They are not pleasant, at all. Enough yearning for one to be found worthy that John wept.

Upon the "Lamb" opening a seal from the book, a judgment is released or an apocalyptic event occurs. The opening of the first four Seals release The Four Horsemen, each with his own specific mission.[6:1-8] The opening of the fifth seal releases the cries of martyrs for the "word/Wrath of God".[6:9-11] The sixth seal prompts earthquakes and other cataclysmic events.[2][6:12-17] The seventh seal cues seven angelic trumpeters who in turn cue the seven bowl judgments and more cataclysmic events.[8:1-13]

Perhaps the seals needed to be opened to accomplish all of God's plan. His Word is His Word and it will accomplish His purpose, whatever it is, even if we cannot understand it. It is like natural death.

While we should not rush to die, neither should we for carnal reasons delay it. For further thoughts on this consider King Hezekiah who asked for and was given 15 more years of life. Should he have done that?

In any case perhaps the opening the seals needs/needed to happen because the results of opening each one is a part of God's plan. Can we understand why? Certainly IF God reveals the reason to us.

We can go back and look at the life of Jesus as a man. Why during that that did he weep? One possible reason could be because the seals had to be opened and he was the one who would do the opening...

Remember when Jesus was praying here?

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:... Matt 26:39

Why did he pray for the passing of the "cup"?
Why did he add these words to the end of his prayer?

"...nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Why is God's will exactly what it is? Why is it often beyond our understanding?

 

[bbyrd009]

On that one, as I understand it, there is no real as why the prophet was killed: He failed to stay in touch with God so as to keep his direction right.

i guess that would certainly qualify, huh?

 

[bbyrd009]

The question that certainly remains for me was why was it a lion that killed him?

bc the Lamb turned into the Lion, they are One and the same. Which answers the next two Qs also i guess. The donkey did nothing wrong, and the Lion was not there to "eat," but to illustrate how easily one might be led astray, to death
imo

similarly, God is an All-Consuming Fire, right, but Gold is impervious to fire, the same fire that kills some does not even harm the robes of others, like that.

the prophet was told not to "eat" or "drink" there, right, and also to leave by a different way; but he "turned aside."

 

[bbyrd009]

Agree. Curious as to why John wept for one to be found worthy to open the book and loose the seven seals?

there i would contemplate what we all weep for, and reflect upon what the other "sevens" in the Book have to relate. But first i would Understand I AM, and grasp the context of "the Revelation of Christ."

iow your perspective is going to change considerably depending upon how, when, and where you perceive Christ being revealed
and whether you anticipate a literal Second Coming that you might see with your two eyes, in some undetermined tomorrow--what the world believes now, iow--etc

What does "loose" mean?

doesn't seem to be any word games going on there, looks like it's just "open?"

 

[Dcopymope]

Why did John weep for one to be found to open the book and the seven seals? Why want the seven seals loosed?

Revelation 5:1-9
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. [2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? [3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. [4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. [5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. [6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. [7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. [8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. [9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

What makes the Lamb worthy to open the book and to loose the seven seals?

Why are the seven seals loosed? The world is in need of a smackdown, and the seven seals are meant to provide just that. Jesus Christ is the only one that overcame the world, so that's why he is the only one worthy to judge it. Not even his Father, or "he that sat on the throne" could or would open it.

 

[bbyrd009]

In any case perhaps the opening the seals need/needed to happen because the results of opening each one is a part of God's plan. Can we understand why? Certainly IF God reveals the reason to us.

the plagues strike me as the result of unleashing Free Will, and a seeker should be able to identify times in their life when they manifested a "plague" bc it seemed like the logical solution at the time? Seven plagues might even be the result of seven sins, etc. I guess the Book starts with Seven Congregations too, right

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Why are the seven seals loosed? The world is in need of a smackdown, and the seven seals are meant to provide just that. Jesus Christ is the only one that overcame the world, so that's why he is the only one worthy to judge it. Not even his Father, or "he that sat on the throne" could or would open it.

I'm aware of the "smackdown". I've heard of it my whole life. What I haven't heard of is ...Why did John weep for someone to be found worthy to open judgement? Why the Lamb of "peace"?

Maybe you can shine light on:

1 Timothy 5:23-25
[23] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. [24] Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. [25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

Revelation 14:12-13
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

"Open Beforehand" ...before what?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

On that one, as I understand it, there is no real as why the prophet was killed: He failed to stay in touch with God so as to keep his direction right.

The question that certainly remains for me was why was it a lion that killed him? Also why did the lion NOT kill the ass? Also why did the lion NOT eat the prophet?

Could it be that the dead carcass of the prophet was a type or shadow of the dead body of Jesus on the cross awaiting the Resurrection? But, being only a type or shadow it was not resurrected.



Perhaps the seals needed to be opened to accomplish all of God's plan. His Word is His Word and it will accomplish His purpose, whatever it is, even if we cannot understand it. It is like natural death.

While we should not rush to die, neither should we for carnal reasons delay it. For further thoughts on this consider King Hezekiah who asked for and was given 15 more years of life. Should he have done that?

In any case perhaps the opening the seals need/needed to happen because the results of opening each one is a part of God's plan. Can we understand why? Certainly IF God reveals the reason to us.

We can go back and look at the life of Jesus as a man. Why during that that did he weep? One possible reason could be because the seals had to be opened and he was the one who would do the opening...

Remember when Jesus was praying here?

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:... Matt 26:39

Why did he pray for the passing of the "cup"?
Why did he add these words to the end of his prayer?

"...nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Why is God's will exactly what it is? Why is it often beyond our understanding?

I feel a bond growing here, Amadeus. You have as many questions as I have.

 

[bbyrd009]

I've heard of it my whole life.

from the whole world basically, right

 

[bbyrd009]

The world is in need of a smackdown, and the seven seals are meant to provide just that.

you reap what you sow i guess right

 

[amadeus]

the plagues strike me as the result of unleashing Free Will, and a seeker should be able to identify times in their life when they manifested a "plague" bc it seemed like the logical solution at the time? Seven plagues might even be the result of seven sins, etc. I guess the Book starts with Seven Congregations too, right

Yes, when we do it God's Way, then there is Life. When we do it our way, man's way, then there is death. Adam & Eve began the death thing and until Jesus opened the closed Way there was no way to Life. Of those who did choose Life getting themselves cleaned out, they failed to continue...

Then the following parable explains the story of man's failure in his new opportunity to effectively repeat Adam's failure:

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." Matt 12:43-45

The seven other more wicked spirits are what man brings upon himself, not because of Adam's first sin, but because man having been born again failed to fill himself up with something good...[the only thing "good" being God] and instead returned to his own vomit. He was cleaned out by the sacrifice of Jesus but he failed to properly proceed from that point and the seven plagues are on him.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, when we do it God's Way, then there is Life. When we do it our way, man's way, then there is death. Adam & Eve began the death thing and until Jesus opened the closed Way there was no way to Life. Of those who did choose Life getting themselves cleaned out, they failed to continue...

Then the following parable explains the story of man's failure in his new opportunity to effectively repeat Adam's failure:

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." Matt 12:43-45

The seven other more wicked spirits are what man brings upon himself, not because of Adam's first sin, but because man having been born again failed to fill himself up with something good...[the only thing "good" being God] and instead returned to his own vomit. He was cleaned out by the sacrifice of Jesus but he failed to properly proceed from that point and the seven plagues are on him.

i agree in spirit, even if i would put it differently, i don't perceive any Way ever being "closed," etc, but no biggie prolly.

 

[amadeus]

I feel a bond growing here, Amadeus. You have as many questions as I have.

Yes, I hear lots of answers, but they are often someone else's answers. Are they correct? God does know but without a confirmation from Him should we presume?

I read and I pray and study and then also listen to preachers and teachers who surely must have the right answer. I have latched onto it sometimes, but later as I continued to read and pray starting always at the lowest room each day, it was not unknown or even necessarily unusual thing to have that answer also struck down.

We must love the truth or find ourselves in delusion. But loving the truth does not mean that we always know all of the truth, does it?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

from the whole world basically, right

Honestly, I believe John wept because no one was found worthy to take the book and to open the seals of judgment. No one was found worthy to carry the weight of sin...but then John sees a Lamb slain. A Lamb able to carry the weight of the worlds sin upon His shoulders.


Is it the same book John ate?