Christian kings (leaders)

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Philip James

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hello everybody,

On a recent thread I posted this :
my opinion is that a leader has an even greater responsibility to guard the spiritual well being of his people than their physical well being.
(corrected a typo)

I think this opinion would make for an interesting theological study. So I would invite all to post relevant scripture, history, theologians, philosophers, preachers or anything else they think would
shine some light on this..

with the moderators permission... I'd like to make a rule here, that there will be no personal attacks or attacks on a particular sect of Christianity, but rather an open and honest discussion of the materials presented... if any one would like a formal debate on it, I would be happy to participate in it on the debate forum.

May the Spirit guide us in our discussions, and in our choice of materials,
Father grant this I pray, in the name of Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord. Amen

Peace be with you!
PJ
 

Philip James

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For this discussion I will be examining the Russian, French and English empires as they are all (or were) professed Christian monarchs,
as well as the president of the U.S.A. who is a professed Christian at least up till today...
If anyone wants to examine early ones such as Charlemange or the Byzantines that would of course be acceptable.
Examining an ideal Christian monarch is of course allowed (Who else but Jesus for the model?)

gotta run ... Ill see what I can add later
 

Philip James

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ok let's get this party started... :)

If we are going to examine the responsibilities of Christian kings and leaders, I think a good place to begin is the first man anointed king over Israel, Saul.
and while a thorough reading of his whole story is encouraged, I'm going to concentrate here on 1 Sam:15

in vs 3 Samuel gives Saul this instruction from the Lord: Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses

and so Saul gathers his army and attacks and destroys Amalek, he takes their king, Agag captive and he and his man take the best of Amaleks goods (sheep,oxen, lambs) for themselves.

afterwards when Samuel goes to find Saul, Saul is all proud of himself and boasts to Samuel : "The LORD bless you! I have kept the command of the LORD." (v 13)

but Samuel will have none of it... and says why then do I hear the sound of these sheep and oxen?... and Saul tells him that they have saved these to offer as sacrifice to the Lord...

Samuel, after reminding Saul that it was the Lord, who made him king says this in v19

Why then have you disobeyed the LORD? You have pounced on the spoil, thus displeasing the LORD?

Does Saul repent in response? No , he again tries to justify his actions.... I did do the Lord's will... the men just saved some of the livestock for sacrifices .
not just trying to justify himself, but also to shift the responsibility to his men...

So what then does Samuel then say? Is partial obedience enough? Is it the fault of Saul's men? No...

...Obedience is better than sacrifice, and submission than the fat of rams...Because you have rejected the command of the LORD, he, too, has rejected you as ruler. vs 22-23

A couple of things I note here.. first , that the responsibility for disobedience is placed squarely on Saul, as king, and not on his men.

Also it seems clear to me, that public acts of piety and worship are less important than (complete) obedience to God.

Finally Saul get it that he has screwed up (or has he?) He blames his actions on 'fear of the people' and asks Samuel for forgiveness...

and later Samuel has this to say to Saul: The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you.

Note here, Saul continued as the anointed king of Israel, but that no son of his ever ruled again...


So, can we now find a parallel in the history of Christendom? I believe we can in Henry VIII of England.

Henry wanted to divorce his first wife, and applied to the pope to have his marriage annulled. the pope refused and instructed Henry that it was not lawful for him to divorce his wife.

In response, Henry severed ties with Rome, declared himself head of the Church in England and divorced his wife.

And just as Saul, no son of Henry ever ruled over England. One was crowned but died before reaching the age of majority, his daughters (Mary and Elizabeth) indeed ruled as Queens, but with the passing of Elizabeth that was the end of the House of Tudor..
The crown passed to a neighbour of theirs... James VI of Scotland of the House of Stuart, who was crowned James I of England

(now James is an interesting guy. He had a Catholic mother (Mary, queen of scots), was raised in presbertyrian Scotland and became the head of the Church of England.. perhaps we'll have a closer look at him later)


To sum up,

I believe that we see here that the first, or primary responsibility of any Christian leader is to be (completely) obedient to the will of God.

and that God will not accept justifications and excuse for failing to do so, nor allow one to shift the blame to those that they had authority over.



Peace!
 
B

brakelite

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KJV Matthew 20
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
 
B

brakelite

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I am very inclined towards the philosophy of Man deciding his own fate and destiny, and not allowing the state or any institution to decide it for him. To accept that any state leader cares for my eternal fate more than I is nonsense. He has enough trouble caring for his own.
I have great admiration for the American constitution. People such as Jefferson and Madison understood well the implications of any church ruling the government. I have no quarrel with a godly person in government... Daniel the prophet is a prime example, but not in any wise did Daniel impose his religious beliefs upon those under his authority.
 

Philip James

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KJV Matthew 20
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

That's definately pertinent scripture. What does that mean to you?

To me it means that a christian leader has a responsibilty to serve those under his charge.
 
B

brakelite

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That's definately pertinent scripture. What does that mean to you?

To me it means that a christian leader has a responsibilty to serve those under his charge.
In this instruction, Jesus was responding to an argument between his disciples to who would be the top dog in the kingdom. Jesus is here talking to His church. He is saying that there shall be no human authority or hierarchal leadership in the church, because in the kingdom there is only one ruler... God.
 
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Philip James

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In this instruction, Jesus was responding to an argument between his disciples to who would be the top dog in the kingdom. Jesus is here talking to His church. He is saying that there shall be no human authority or hierarchal leadership in the church, because in the kingdom there is only one ruler... God.

If you wish to talk about the structure and authority in the church, id be happy to, but i think that would make another thread... Im interested in discussing the responsibilites of a christian king/leader. I suppose discussing the responsiblities of a leader in a church would apply, but you seem to think there are none?
 
B

brakelite

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If you wish to talk about the structure and authority in the church, id be happy to, but i think that would make another thread... Im interested in discussing the responsibilites of a christian king/leader. I suppose discussing the responsiblities of a leader in a church would apply, but you seem to think there are none?
If Jesus is declaring that no disciples of his was to lord it over others in the church as per gentiles do in their institutions, then even more so ought his disciples reject any suggestion that they could rule in matters of salvation or worship in secular society.
 

Windmill Charge

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believe that we see here that the first, or primary responsibility of any Christian leader is to be (completely) obedient to the will of God.

That is true of a 'Christian leader/ruler' but it is not true of a non christian leader/ruler.

The Israelite, dispite many warnings would not live in obedience to God and were punished by being taken into exile. The asyrian, babyleon eyc kings had no spiritual responcibility for the Israelites in exile.

Today laws are made by the peoples representatives, non christians elected by non christians to govern a country in the way its non christian people want.
 

Philip James

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Today laws are made by the peoples representatives, non christians elected by non christians to govern a country in the way its non christian people want

And yet most of them profess to BE christians.... So then what can we expect for Christian nations that have turned from Him in disobedience and now only honour Him with their lips?

And i think looking at the history of Israel and Christendom will answer that... As well as hopefully shedding some light on the subject of the OP.

Im going to read through Davids kingdom before my next post on examining that question...
 
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brakelite

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So then what can we expect for Christian nations that have turned from Him in disobedience and now only honour Him with their lips?
What do you suggest? Legislation to enforce religious practice? How will that change or convert the heart? When Jesus was establishing HIs church, I see no evidence that the church he founded was instructed to impose its beliefs on secular governments. That thinking didn't eventuate until the 4th century and beyond.
I think you must needs convince us that there has, or is a "Christian" nation, and what that means. While Calvinists certainly attempted to establish a theocracy in, I think, the Netherlands in the 17th century, and of course the many conquests on behalf of Catholicism over the Arian nations by such as Clovis and other European nations by such as Charlamagne and Louis 14th (a case could be had for the tripartite agreement between the Pope, Hitler, and Mussolini as a continuation of the same policy) in the advance of the "Holy Empire", but could that be offered as an example of a "Christian" nation if it were not God's will nor desire to promote such a concept?
I know Catholicism is founded on the premise of the union of the church with the state, in order to establish the nation under Catholic principles and Papal authority. Hence the historic antipathy from Rome toward American democracy or republicanism. But I do not see the role of the government as promoting any religion, but on the contrary, to protect the freedoms of the individual to their own chosen paths toward salvation/God. The responsibility of a Christian ruler therefore is NOT to impose his beliefs on anyone, but simply to protect everyone's right to choose their own destiny. His own example and lifestyle ought to be the only outward witness to his beliefs, and testimony to their power in his life.
I believe that we see here that the first, or primary responsibility of any Christian leader is to be (completely) obedient to the will of God.
But is that not true for us all regardless of the extent of our responsibilities? Take my role as a husband for example. Is it my role to lead my family to the cross through love and example, or by force, coercion, and law with appropriate penalties as inducement? Sure, there is discipline for the children in matters of obedience, but I have no more power to convert my children to Christianity than does any "Christian" ruler his electorate.
One final question. Which particular branch of Christendom should the Christian ruler impose or encourage in his nation?
 

Windmill Charge

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And yet most of them profess to BE christians.... So then what can we expect for Christian nations that have turned from Him in disobedience and now only honour Him with their lips?

And i think looking at the history of Israel and Christendom will answer that... As well as hopefully shedding some light on the subject of the OP.

Im going to read through Davids kingdom before my next post on examining that question...

Basicly you are chasing wild geese. There has never been a Christian nation, omly nations where Christian ideas sort to be practiced by an influencial portion of the population.

If you want to worry about Christianity look at this:-
China's Scary "Social Experiment" Coming To America? - MoneyWise 411
and a comment on it:-
The worrying implications of China's social-credit project | Hacker News