CATHOLIC BASHING THREAD TITLES

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
This is the warning Paul gave in Hebrews 4:1-11 about laboring in unbelief in coming short of that rest in Jesus Christ.
Paul was warning the Hebrew Christians that unless they focused EXCLUSIVELY on Christ and His finished work of redemption, they were in unbelief. The same principle applies to all Catholics.

If a Catholic believes EXCLUSIVELY in Christ and His finished work of redemption, he must DEPART from the Catholic Church. You cannot believe in salvation through sacraments and also believe exclusively in Christ and what He has accomplished (with no assistance from Mary).
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul was warning the Hebrew Christians that unless they focused EXCLUSIVELY on Christ and His finished work of redemption, they were in unbelief. The same principle applies to all Catholics.

If a Catholic believes EXCLUSIVELY in Christ and His finished work of redemption, he must DEPART from the Catholic Church. You cannot believe in salvation through sacraments and also believe exclusively in Christ and what He has accomplished (with no assistance from Mary).
RUBBISH.

First of all - it is almost a scholarly foregone conclusion that Paul didn't write the Book of Hebrews.
That being said - the author was speaking about works of the LAW, which Jesus fulfilled.

Catholics DO believe in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Who do you think told the world about this fact? What sets us apart is the Biblical teaching that we must COOPERATE with God's grace in order to remain faithful.

You don't get to simply "believe" - then sit on your fanny and do whatever you please in this life. The Lesson of the Sheep and Goats pretty much explains that - as do the Beatitudes.
Jesus condemned that kind of false, easy-believism (Matt. 7:21). He stated that ONLY the one who DOES the will of the Father will be saved.

Hmmmmm - "DOES" . . . . sounds like WORK to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip James
B

brakelite

Guest
I find it funny that you keep repeating the same tired mantra above in RED - yet you can't explain to be just WHY the Catholic Church should have 100% doctrinal or hierarchical agreement with ANY renegade offshoot.

Why would the Church, which is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) settle for anything less??
@epostle and @BreadOfLife read my post#212
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I did not say that you had stated that the church began in Rome. I merely said you make it sound as if that is the case.

False history...psychotic screeching??? Hahaha. Are you actually attempting to convince us all that there was ever only one church, and that was in Rome???
What happened to the church that Thomas established in Goa, India?
What happened to the church that was founded in Britain before even Patrick came on the scene?
What happened to the church that was established by Paul and others throughout Asia?
What happened to the church that was founded in the middle east, known as the Assyrian church?
What of their "authority"? What of the promises that their truth would never be prevailed against?????
If you claim that they were all apostate churches, then why did Jesus fail with them but succeed with Rome? If they could apostatise, then why not Rome???????
First of all - WHO said that Thomas established the Church in India??
Ohhhh, right - that's CATHOLIC Tradition.

As for there being only ONE Church - that is absolutely correct.
All of the cities that Paul and Thomas and the rest established were ALL the SAME Church. It was merely established just in different places. Today, we call them "Dioceses" and "Parishes".

As for the Assyrian Church and many of the other Eastern Rite and Eastern Orthodox Churches - they have valid Apostolic Succession. WHO is denying that they do??

Seems to me that you need to do your homework . . .
 

Philip James

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
4,276
3,092
113
Brandon
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
My favoirite Orthodox expression:

One can say with certainty where the Church is, not where it is not

I apologize for not knowing its author....
 

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul was warning the Hebrew Christians that unless they focused EXCLUSIVELY on Christ and His finished work of redemption, they were in unbelief. The same principle applies to all Catholics.

If a Catholic believes EXCLUSIVELY in Christ and His finished work of redemption, he must DEPART from the Catholic Church. You cannot believe in salvation through sacraments and also believe exclusively in Christ and what He has accomplished (with no assistance from Mary).

This also applies to Billy Graham's altar call for those not sure they were saved by making a commitment to follow Christ as a means of gaining assurance of their salvation.
 

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
RUBBISH.

First of all - it is almost a scholarly foregone conclusion that Paul didn't write the Book of Hebrews.

The race is mentioned in Hebrews 12:1-2 and the race is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.

The author refers to "our brother, Timothy" as Paul has written to Timothy twice. I have not seen Peter nor John referring to Timothy personally in any of their epistles.

So I fail to see why you say it is an almost a scholarly foregone conclusion that Paul did not write the Book of Hebrews.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Enoch111

Josiah

Active Member
Jun 12, 2018
146
40
28
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I find it funny that you keep repeating the same tired mantra above in RED - yet you can't explain to be just WHY the Catholic Church should have 100% doctrinal or hierarchical agreement


It's YOU insisting that it has 100% doctrinal or hierarchical agreement, it's YOUR claim (not mine) you just refuse to say what other churches it's in this unity with. Why do you refuse? Because there are NONE. It has NO fully doctrinal or hierarchical agreement with ANY but it itself alone - and no less can be said of any other denomination, NO denomination has less unity than the RC one has since it is impossible to have less unity than with none (the unity the RC has)

I agree, YOUR claim is not only wrong but meaningless. Instead of perpetually parroting the old, old, worn, and obviously wrong claims of some Catholics for their denomination, why not focus on the great things about your denomination?



- Josiah
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The race is mentioned in Hebrews 12:1-2 and the race is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.

The author refers to "our brother, Timothy" as Paul has written to Timothy twice. I have not seen Peter nor John referring to Timothy personally in any of their epistles.

So I fail to see why you say it is an almost a scholarly foregone conclusion that Paul did not write the Book of Hebrews.
This was a MINOR point in my response to you - but MOST scholars do not believe that Paul wrote Hebrews - and that the evidence is so overwhelming, that it is not even up for debate.

From Wikipedia:
Authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews
In general, the evidence against Pauline authorship is considered too solid for scholarly dispute. Donald Guthrie, in his New Testament Introduction (1976), commented that "most modern writers find more difficulty in imagining how this Epistle was ever attributed to Paul than in disposing of the theory."[14] Harold Attridge tells us that "it is certainly not a work of the apostle".[15] Daniel Wallace, who holds to the traditional authorship of the other epistles, states that "the arguments against Pauline authorship, however, are conclusive."[16] As a result, although a few people today believe Paul wrote Hebrews, such as theologian R.C. Sproul,[17] contemporary scholars generally reject Pauline authorship.[18] As Richard Heard notes, in his Introduction to the New Testament, "modern critics have confirmed that the epistle cannot be attributed to Paul and have for the most part agreed with Origen's judgement, 'But as to who wrote the epistle, only God knows the truth.'"[19]

From Doctrine.org, here is a list of the five main points why Paul couldn't have written the Letter:
Five major objections exist to Pauline authorship:2
  1. The letter is anonymous which is contrary to Paul’s practice in his other letters.
  2. The writing style is dramatically better than Paul.
  3. The logical development is much more tightly woven than is Paul’s.
  4. Spiritual eyewitnesses are appealed to (Hebrews 2.3) while Paul insisted on no intermediaries for his gospel (Galatians 1.12).
  5. Timothy’s imprisonment (Hebrews 13.23) does not seem to fit within Paul’s lifetime since he is mentioned in Acts and Paul’s letters as a free man.

Anyway - back with the topic . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's YOU insisting that it has 100% doctrinal or hierarchical agreement, it's YOUR claim (not mine) you just refuse to say what other churches it's in this unity with. Why do you refuse? Because there are NONE. It has NO fully doctrinal or hierarchical agreement with ANY but it itself alone - and no less can be said of any other denomination, NO denomination has less unity than the RC one has since it is impossible to have less unity than with none (the unity the RC has)

I agree, YOUR claim is not only wrong but meaningless. Instead of perpetually parroting the old, old, worn, and obviously wrong claims of some Catholics for their denomination, why not focus on the great things about your denomination?
Josiah
This is a really stupid argument because, as I have shown - not ONE SINGLE group has 100% doctrinal or hierarchical agreement with anybody but themselves.
That's what makes a unique group "unique".

I'll dumb it down for you so that you can understand: If say, the Lutheran church and the Catholic Church had 100% doctrinal AND hierarchical agreement with each other - there would be NO Lutheran Church. They would be called, "Catholics."

Look - if you're going to make an argument against the Catholic Church about doctrine or practice or hierarchy - be my guest. However - this is an asinine argument you keep perpetuating . . .
 

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This was a MINOR point in my response to you - but MOST scholars do not believe that Paul wrote Hebrews - and that the evidence is so overwhelming, that it is not even up for debate.

From Wikipedia:
Authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews
In general, the evidence against Pauline authorship is considered too solid for scholarly dispute. Donald Guthrie, in his New Testament Introduction (1976), commented that "most modern writers find more difficulty in imagining how this Epistle was ever attributed to Paul than in disposing of the theory."[14] Harold Attridge tells us that "it is certainly not a work of the apostle".[15] Daniel Wallace, who holds to the traditional authorship of the other epistles, states that "the arguments against Pauline authorship, however, are conclusive."[16] As a result, although a few people today believe Paul wrote Hebrews, such as theologian R.C. Sproul,[17] contemporary scholars generally reject Pauline authorship.[18] As Richard Heard notes, in his Introduction to the New Testament, "modern critics have confirmed that the epistle cannot be attributed to Paul and have for the most part agreed with Origen's judgement, 'But as to who wrote the epistle, only God knows the truth.'"[19]

From Doctrine.org, here is a list of the five main points why Paul couldn't have written the Letter:
Five major objections exist to Pauline authorship:2
  1. The letter is anonymous which is contrary to Paul’s practice in his other letters.
  2. The writing style is dramatically better than Paul.
  3. The logical development is much more tightly woven than is Paul’s.
  4. Spiritual eyewitnesses are appealed to (Hebrews 2.3) while Paul insisted on no intermediaries for his gospel (Galatians 1.12).
  5. Timothy’s imprisonment (Hebrews 13.23) does not seem to fit within Paul’s lifetime since he is mentioned in Acts and Paul’s letters as a free man.

Anyway - back with the topic . . .

Scholarly men and modern critics can be in error.

Addressing the 5 major objections with His help;

#1. Paul, being a former persecuting Jew, would be more at home in writing to believers that have come out of Judaism in relating to them. It is not so anonymous if Paul cites running that race as he had written of in the epistle to the Corinthians.

#2. The writing style is Paul's since it did mention the race and Timothy, and just because it was "better written" which is an opinion anyway, that does not mean it did not come from him.

#3, The logical development is also an opinion. There are premises in his other epistles for what he has gone into more in Hebrews. 1 Corinthians 10th chapter in addressing idolatry in communion to the Gentiles & Jews, and then in Hebrews 10th chapter in addressing the practice of the former sacrificial offering in relation to communion to the Jews in how if they use communion like the former sacrificial system in receiving Christ one time's offering for sin "again" thus placing the blood of the New Covenant on par with the blood of goats and bulls that it needs repeating to be received again, God will be wroth with His people and judge His people for treating His blood as if it was an unholy thing; as in not good enough the first time to effect salvation wherein the Holy Ghost in them is a Witness that they are saved.

#4. Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Paul heard Jesus when He revealed Himself to Him on the road to Damascus. Having experienced this, he grouped himself with others that have heard Him.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

That is how he was able to group himself with those that have heard Him in Hebrews 2:3

#5. Hebrews 13:23 is not referring to Timothy's imprisonment, but being "set at liberty" from other tasks in the ministry to come to them.

I reckon you will side with the scholars on this rather than lean on Him as your Good Shepherd for the wisdom in seeing the truth in His words.

You can prove me wrong by going before that throne of grace and ask Him for help in trusting Him as your personal Good Shepherd for the wisdom to understand the truths in His words. I admit that I cannot convince you of the truth, but I have faith in Him that He can if you trust Him to do this.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Scholarly men and modern critics can be in error.

Addressing the 5 major objections with His help;

#1. Paul, being a former persecuting Jew, would be more at home in writing to believers that have come out of Judaism in relating to them. It is not so anonymous if Paul cites running that race as he had written of in the epistle to the Corinthians.

#2. The writing style is Paul's since it did mention the race and Timothy, and just because it was "better written" which is an opinion anyway, that does not mean it did not come from him.

#3, The logical development is also an opinion. There are premises in his other epistles for what he has gone into more in Hebrews. 1 Corinthians 10th chapter in addressing idolatry in communion to the Gentiles & Jews, and then in Hebrews 10th chapter in addressing the practice of the former sacrificial offering in relation to communion to the Jews in how if they use communion like the former sacrificial system in receiving Christ one time's offering for sin "again" thus placing the blood of the New Covenant on par with the blood of goats and bulls that it needs repeating to be received again, God will be wroth with His people and judge His people for treating His blood as if it was an unholy thing; as in not good enough the first time to effect salvation wherein the Holy Ghost in them is a Witness that they are saved.

#4. Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Paul heard Jesus when He revealed Himself to Him on the road to Damascus. Having experienced this, he grouped himself with others that have heard Him.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

That is how he was able to group himself with those that have heard Him in Hebrews 2:3

#5. Hebrews 13:23 is not referring to Timothy's imprisonment, but being "set at liberty" from other tasks in the ministry to come to them.

I reckon you will side with the scholars on this rather than lean on Him as your Good Shepherd for the wisdom in seeing the truth in His words.

You can prove me wrong by going before that throne of grace and ask Him for help in trusting Him as your personal Good Shepherd for the wisdom to understand the truths in His words. I admit that I cannot convince you of the truth, but I have faith in Him that He can if you trust Him to do this.
And all I can say to you is that this is a debate for another thread.
I would LOVE to believe that Paul wrote Hebrews - but the evidence against that notion is overwhelming.

In the end - it's not important who wrote it down - it's the AUTHOR, the Holy Spirit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FHII and Helen

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The race is mentioned in Hebrews 12:1-2 and the race is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.

The author refers to "our brother, Timothy" as Paul has written to Timothy twice. I have not seen Peter nor John referring to Timothy personally in any of their epistles.

So I fail to see why you say it is an almost a scholarly foregone conclusion that Paul did not write the Book of Hebrews.
Paul was definitely the writer of Hebrews, and this would have been the consensus of Reformation scholars. The original KJB did not hesitate to title this book "The epistle of Paul the apostle to the Hebrews", and end it with a comment about written by Timothy from Italy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JesusIsFaithful

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And all I can say to you is that this is a debate for another thread.
I would LOVE to believe that Paul wrote Hebrews - but the evidence against that notion is overwhelming.

In the end - it's not important who wrote it down - it's the AUTHOR, the Holy Spirit.

It is true that Paul is nothing in His ministry.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

But Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit Whose words are from Christ's.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So Jesus Christ is the author & finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

As it is, I agree to drop the sideline discussion. Thank you.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,159
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
And all I can say to you is that this is a debate for another thread.
I would LOVE to believe that Paul wrote Hebrews - but the evidence against that notion is overwhelming.

In the end - it's not important who wrote it down - it's the AUTHOR, the Holy Spirit.

AMEN!! I agree with you on both points.
As much as I love and read all Paul's writings more than anything else.
I do believe that he did NOT write Hebrews.
Much in the style and even his 'hidden signatures' are not there.

Nevertheless , Hebrews is equably a wonderful book which I love and always read it along with all Pauls.

As you say...The Holy Spirit wrote it...so the credit "to whom" does not matter one iota.
Bless you...H
 

Josiah

Active Member
Jun 12, 2018
146
40
28
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Look - if you're going to make an argument against the Catholic Church about doctrine or practice or hierarchy - be my guest. However - this is an asinine argument you keep perpetuating . . .


What is "asinine" is your perpetual parroting of the claim that the RCC has all this grand unity (but never is it stated WITH WHAT?). The claim you parrot is wrong and (and to use your word) asinine.
 

Josiah

Active Member
Jun 12, 2018
146
40
28
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
With Jesus and with each other.

... and at least as much is also true of every other denomination. So the old, worn "spin" is pretty meaningless.

Absurd that some try to turn this into some "pic'n on us pur Catholics" .... It's not an "anti-Catholic" point AT ALL (especially since I freely admitted it's often true of Protestant denominations, too - although of course it's impossible for any denomination to be worse than the RCC in this aspect since it's impossible to have unity with fewer than none). I simply pointed out that this claim is false and meaningless (and that's way nearly all Catholics don't claim it).

And I shared that the RCC has MUCH that is true and good. I'm puzzled as to why SOME Catholics just parrot some old, worn stuff that is OBVIOUSLY false and often meaningless rather than bring up with is true and good and meaningful, but what is is. And it is absurd when they shout "You Hater!" when someone simply points out the undeniable and obvious - that the false claim is not true.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What is "asinine" is your perpetual parroting of the claim that the RCC has all this grand unity (but never is it stated WITH WHAT?). The claim you parrot is wrong and (and to use your word) asinine.
Since you can't seem to understand how moronic your position is - let me ask YOU a question.
WHO do you want the Church to have 100% unity with?

The United States is a unified country of 50 states.
It has unity with itself.

The Catholic Church is a unified body of about 20 Rites.
Who ELSE should the Catholic Church have unity 100% with??
 

Josiah

Active Member
Jun 12, 2018
146
40
28
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Since you can't seem to understand how moronic your position is

It's YOU insisting that your denomination has 100% doctrinal or hierarchical agreement, it's YOUR claim (not mine) you just refuse to say what other churches it's in this unity with. Why do you refuse? Because there are NONE. It has NO fully doctrinal or hierarchical agreement with ANY but it itself alone - and no less can be said of any other denomination, NO denomination has less unity than the RC one has since it is impossible to have less unity than with none (the unity the RC has)

I agree, YOUR claim is not only "moronic" to use YOUR term, but obviously meaningless. The RCC has this unity with NONE and there is NO OTHER DENOMINATION on the planet and in all history that has LESS such "unity" than your denomination. Instead of perpetually parroting the old, old, worn, and (to use YOUR words, "asinine" and "moronic") claims of some Catholics for their denomination, why not focus on the great things about your denomination?



- Josiah



.