Mother Teresa

[Enoch111]

Ok.....what did he mean literally.....and what did he not mean literally.....that's the question.

And that question is not hard to answer. Almost everything symbolic is also explained, either in Revelation, or in Daniel, or in other prophetic portions of Scripture.

The seven stars are the seven angels, the seven candlesticks are the seven churches, etc. But by and large we must read Revelation in is plain literal and chronological sense, taking us from the apostolic churches to the eternal state.

 

[Triumph1300]

A dragon with many heads ,,, or is it horns?

Come on, you'r smarter than that!

 

[Triumph1300]

Almost everything symbolic is also explained, either in Revelation, or in Daniel

What about the stuff that's not explained?
Come on, we'r not crazy.

 

[Enoch111]

What about the stuff that's not explained?
Come on, we'r not crazy.

1. OK, let's take the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. If you read the Olivet Discourse in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, you find exactly what those horsemen represent. We will leave the details for now.

2. Let's take the 144,000 redeemed Israelites. We know exactly who they are and what their purpose is. Nothing symbolic there, unless you wish to say that they symbolize redeemed and restored Israel on earth in the future. They tell us that God has a plan for redeemed Israel as distinct from the Church, since we see both groups at the throne of God in Rev 7.

3. Let's take the two faithful witnesses in Revelation 11. We know that they are prophets sent to prophesy and preach to the Jews during the reign of the Antichrist, and by examining the miracles they perform, we can reasonably concluded that they are Moses and Elijah. And we know from Malachi that Elijah must come to earth before the Day of the Lord (not to be confused with the Lord's Day -- the day of worship), as many do.

4. Let take "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars". This presents some controversy, but it is reasonable to conclude that she represents believing Israel, the 12 stars representing the twelve tribes. Messiah -- the one who rules all nations with a rod of iron -- is her child in that the Lord descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and David. And her believing remnant is preserved in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years.

 

[Philip James]

Let's take the 144,000 redeemed Israelites

Anybody know where we can find 144000 virgin men consecrated to the Lord?

Peace!

 

[epostle]

Anybody know where we can find 144000 virgin men consecrated to the Lord?
Peace!

It won't be San Francisco
The 144,000 people described in two passages of the Bible: Revelation 7:1-8 and 14:1-5. According to the first passage, they are "the servants of . . . God" (7:3) who are pictured as being sealed upon their foreheads. Verses 4-8 depict there being 12,000 sealed from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, giving a total of 144,000.
The Witnesses say these people represent the Church of Christ, the Israel of God, and this is a common view among Bible scholars, one that has had a long history in the interpretation of Revelation. The 144,000 are taken as a symbol of the Christian faithful. It is what Witnesses say next that is bizarre.

Supposedly God began collecting the 144,000 at Pentecost in A.D. 33 but stopped collecting them in 1935, when the full number was reached. Some of the 144,000 are still living, and they are all Jehovah's Witnesses. As of 1986 there were only about 9,000 of the 144,000 left alive. Since the Jehovah's Witnesses are a larger group, possessing several million members, how are the rest of the Witnesses regarded? As non-members of the body of Christ. They will still be saved in the end, but they will not be part of the body and will not go to heaven. They are considered part of the "great crowd" mentioned in Revelation 7:9-10.

In Jehovah's Witness "kingdom halls" (church buildings) only members of the 144,000 are allowed to receive communion when the Lord's Supper is celebrated (which is done infrequently). Sometimes kingdom halls celebrate the Lord's Supper and no one receives communion since none of the 144,000 are present.

Needless to say, the Witness's view is riddled with holes. When discussing the 144,000 with Witnesses, make them realize that they are being inconsistent in how they interpret the texts where the 144,000 are mentioned. They insist that there are exactly 144,000 of these people, no more and no less, making it a literal number, but they interpret every other detail about this group in a symbolic manner.

If they were consistent, they would have to conclude that the 144,000 are Jews, drawn equally from the twelve tribes of Israel (most of which are now unrecognizably lost), that they are all male virgins who do not lie and who have two names literally written on their foreheads. The problem is that almost none of the 9,000 Witnesses supposed to be members of this group fit this description. Many of them are married Gentile women with children, and they presumably have bent the truth more than a few times in their lives.

The only detail from the text that the Witnesses take literally is the number. Every other detail of the text is taken non-literally. They should either take all of the details literally or see the 144,000 as a symbol of the Church as a whole (as does virtually everyone else).
What is the significance of the number 144,000 to Jehovah's Witnesses? | Catholic Answers

 

[GodsGrace]

It won't be San Francisco
The 144,000 people described in two passages of the Bible: Revelation 7:1-8 and 14:1-5. According to the first passage, they are "the servants of . . . God" (7:3) who are pictured as being sealed upon their foreheads. Verses 4-8 depict there being 12,000 sealed from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, giving a total of 144,000.
The Witnesses say these people represent the Church of Christ, the Israel of God, and this is a common view among Bible scholars, one that has had a long history in the interpretation of Revelation. The 144,000 are taken as a symbol of the Christian faithful. It is what Witnesses say next that is bizarre.

Supposedly God began collecting the 144,000 at Pentecost in A.D. 33 but stopped collecting them in 1935, when the full number was reached. Some of the 144,000 are still living, and they are all Jehovah's Witnesses. As of 1986 there were only about 9,000 of the 144,000 left alive. Since the Jehovah's Witnesses are a larger group, possessing several million members, how are the rest of the Witnesses regarded? As non-members of the body of Christ. They will still be saved in the end, but they will not be part of the body and will not go to heaven. They are considered part of the "great crowd" mentioned in Revelation 7:9-10.

In Jehovah's Witness "kingdom halls" (church buildings) only members of the 144,000 are allowed to receive communion when the Lord's Supper is celebrated (which is done infrequently). Sometimes kingdom halls celebrate the Lord's Supper and no one receives communion since none of the 144,000 are present.

Needless to say, the Witness's view is riddled with holes. When discussing the 144,000 with Witnesses, make them realize that they are being inconsistent in how they interpret the texts where the 144,000 are mentioned. They insist that there are exactly 144,000 of these people, no more and no less, making it a literal number, but they interpret every other detail about this group in a symbolic manner.

If they were consistent, they would have to conclude that the 144,000 are Jews, drawn equally from the twelve tribes of Israel (most of which are now unrecognizably lost), that they are all male virgins who do not lie and who have two names literally written on their foreheads. The problem is that almost none of the 9,000 Witnesses supposed to be members of this group fit this description. Many of them are married Gentile women with children, and they presumably have bent the truth more than a few times in their lives.

The only detail from the text that the Witnesses take literally is the number. Every other detail of the text is taken non-literally. They should either take all of the details literally or see the 144,000 as a symbol of the Church as a whole (as does virtually everyone else).
What is the significance of the number 144,000 to Jehovah's Witnesses? | Catholic Answers

12 x 12 is 144. I always thought it represented the twelve tribes of Israel.
Could it be a perfect number? Like 7 is God's number?
Like 666 is just short of a complete and perfect number.
Honestly, I don't understand why Revelation is discussed.

P.S. what does your signature line mean?

 

[GodsGrace]

Come on, you'r smarter than that!

No I'm not!
I like the parts of revelation that can be understood as literal.
Jesus knocking and we could let Him in. Reminds me of John 3:16.
The warnings to the churches.
Sin will not enter into heaven.

For instance, do you believe the Book of Life to be a literal book?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Did Mother Teresa ever get saved?
Is Mother Teresa right now in heaven or hell?
Did Mother Teresa ever give a salvation message to anyone?
Did Mother Teresa suffer with demons?
Did Mother Teresa say that you can get to heaven in other religions?
Did Mother Teresa ever have children?

Why does the whole world look upon Mother Teresa as someone who is from God?
Were Mother Teresa's good works enough to get her to heaven?
Are we doing the world justice promoting the godly goodness of Mother Teresa?

Has anyone answered to all such in fact ?
Good works do not get anyone into Heaven.
I don't think that she did get saved or gave the salvation message to anyone.
I think she did say you can get to heaven in other religions.
The media and TV promote her works and I say good on her for doing such but that's not what Jesus wanted from us. but such is what the worldly truly only love, even Satanist love that.

No one can come along and say what we understand she was doing was wrong or a bad thing as to carnal man, it's great even Satan would love it. Satan is not a bad thing to atheist because it's just the works of man and his ego trip at work.

Go talk to an atheist and ask about her and you will see them in awe and they will get angered and try to turn on you with hatred, just like they did with Jesus, if you speak the truth.
They want the Kingdome but they don't want God in it.
They think they can do it all on there own, but history has proven that we can't do it, such has always failed in the past.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is an interesting article (IMHO) it is from:Where did Old Testaments saints go at death? Abraham's Bosom?
The full question we received was, “Before Jesus died on the cross and opened the gates of Heaven, where did people go when they died? What’s Abraham’s Bosom?”
I love the way the person asked this question because it indicates an understanding that it is only by Jesus’ finished work on the cross that anyone, in any time period, goes to Heaven. That includes Old Testament saints. They did not go to Heaven when they died, because Jesus had not come to earth and lived the life we could not live and died the death we should have died. His work, alone, opened the way to the Father in Heaven.
While people in the Old Testament were saved by the grace of God when they trusted in Him (saving faith), their sins were not yet washed away (atoned for) by the blood of Jesus. After God delivered His people from Egypt, and when He first set them on a journey to their inheritance in the Promised Land, He gave them a system of animal sacrifice to be a blood offering to cover their sins. However, the blood of an animal could never fully atone for the sins of man, and the works of man (including sacrificial works) could never fully satisfy God. Therefore, it was necessary that a day would come when God would send His Son, to be incarnated as a man, to live a pure and sinless life and to die as the perfect Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world (John 1:29).
In the wilderness God had told His people that the life of man is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11) and therefore only by the blood of a man could the wrath of God’s judgment of sin be satisfied and the penalty for sin be paid. And, it had to be pure, sinless blood. Only Jesus could be that sacrifice and so He laid down His life in submission to His Father’s will and His blood was acceptable in God’s sight.
So where did Old Testament saints go before Jesus’ finished work?
We know that only Jesus is the way, truth and life (John 14:6) and the Old Testament saints did not know the Way. Prior to Jesus’ atonement, the Old Testament saints went to a place called Abraham’s Bosom. In Luke 16, Jesus describes two distinctly different places, where man’s soul went at death:
1. the place of comfort called Abraham’s Bosom and
2. the place of torment that we refer to as Hell.

1) Abraham’s Bosom Was Not Heaven.
Heaven is defined as the place where God dwells. Geographically we think of it as being “up above,” beyond the heaven that we see, the one in which birds and airplanes fly. The place where God dwells is even beyond the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars exist. God’s dwelling place is considered to be the highest of heavens (Luke 19:38), the “Heaven of heavens” (Deuteronomy 10:14, 1 Kings 8:27) and is referred to in the Bible as the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2).
Where was Abraham’s Bosom?
Abraham’s Bosom was located “down below” the heavens in the depths of the earth. Jesus referred to it as the “heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40) and it was the abode of the righteous dead prior to Jesus’ resurrection. Jesus also referred to this place as “paradise,” when He promised the thief on the cross next to Him that he would be with Him that same day, in paradise. (Luke 23:43)
What was Abraham’s Bosom?
Abraham’s Bosom was a place of comfort and it was a place of waiting. The sins of Old Testament saints were remitted by the Levitical system of atonement using the blood of animals. Since this was not sufficient to completely atone for sins, those who died in faith went to Abraham’s Bosom and waited until the time their sins would be paid for completely. They waited for the promised Seed, the Rescuer, the One who was promised in the Garden (Genesis 3:15, Galatians 4:4) to their father Abraham (Genesis 22:17-18, Galatians 3:16) and promised again to their most exalted earthly King, King David (2 Samuel 7:12-16, Acts 13:21-23).
When Jesus offered Himself in payment for the penalty of man’s sins, His shed blood made the complete and final atonement for sins. And, when Jesus ascended into Heaven, He led the Old Testament saints from Abraham’s Bosom to their new dwelling place with Him (Ephesians 4:8) in the Heaven of heavens.
2) The Other Place
Since the time of Jesus’ ascension, there now only remains the place of torment within the earth. We call this place “hell,” which is a translation of the Hebrew word “sheol” (meaning the world of the dead, the grave or the pit) and the Greek word “Hades” (meaning the place of departed souls, the grave). Remember, prior to Jesus’ ascension into Heaven both Abraham’s Bosom and the place of torment existed in the earth as the place of the dead. Since Jesus’ ascension, only one place remains Hell. That is why, when we refer to Hell now, we are referring to the place of torment only.
The place of torment is similar to Abraham’s Bosom in that it is a temporary abode for the unrighteous dead (Abraham’s Bosom was the temporary abode for the righteous dead until the saints were fully redeemed). In the place of torment, the unrighteous await a final judgment that is yet to come, which is referred to as the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15. At that time, all the souls in the place of torment will be bodily raised and judged. They will go to their eternal destination, which the Bible calls the Lake of Fire (Revelations 20:15). The Lake of Fire is certainly not a place of comfort and rest.
Fatherly Comfort
In Abraham’s Bosom the Old Testament saints were comforted by Father Abraham, but now they are in the comfort and rest of God the Father—the God whom the Old Testament saints knew as the God of their forefathers. Heaven is the eternal resting place of all who die in faith, having had their sins forgiven and washed away by the blood of Jesus. The Old Testament saints awaited Jesus’ atonement and then were taken there. New Testament saints, those who live in the age of the Christian Church (also known as the age of the indwelling Holy Spirit), go immediately to be with Jesus in Heaven. (2 Corinthians 5:8) at the time of death.
It’s amazing to think that our souls will be transported up above the heavens of our atmosphere and outer space, and beyond that to the Heaven of heavens in which God the Father and Jesus the Son dwell. We will join the multitude of saints who have gone before us. A bit lengthy but, worth the read.

Hi Nancy, nothing much left to read.
You've explained it all perfectly ...
BTW, welcome.

 

[GodsGrace]

Has anyone answered to all such in fact ?
Good works do not get anyone into Heaven.
I don't think that she did get saved or gave the salvation message to anyone.
I think she did say you can get to heaven in other religions.
The media and TV promote her works and I say good on her for doing such but that's not what Jesus wanted from us. but such is what the worldly truly only love, even Satanist love that.

No one can come along and say what we understand she was doing was wrong or a bad thing as to carnal man, it's great even Satan would love it. Satan is not a bad thing to atheist because it's just the works of man and his ego trip at work.

Go talk to an atheist and ask about her and you will see them in awe and they will get angered and try to turn on you with hatred, just like they did with Jesus, if you speak the truth.
They want the Kingdome but they don't want God in it.
They think they can do it all on there own, but history has proven that we can't do it, such has always failed in the past.

Do bad works get us into heaven?
What's wrong with works?

You should think highly of M.Teresa.
She actually lived the gospel message.
Isn't this what Jesus wanted?

 

[GodsGrace]

NO!! I do not. That parable doesn't sound very inviting on either side of the "gulf fixed"...

So what do you believe???
Soul sleep? Nothing else left.

 

[epostle]

12 x 12 is 144. I always thought it represented the twelve tribes of Israel.
Could it be a perfect number? Like 7 is God's number?
Like 666 is just short of a complete and perfect number.
Honestly, I don't understand why Revelation is discussed.

P.S. what does your signature line mean?

Hi GG,
I usually avoid discussions with rebelation and whore duh babble-on addicts. 144,000 is a symbolic number, 12X12X1000 can be whatever one wants it to be. Yes, 12 tribes and 12 Apostles. Jesus picked 12 not because it was cheaper by the dozen. Therefore 144,000 is a symbolic number because all the verses around it are symbolic
A dozen eggs X 12 chickens X 1000 chicken farms hatching more eggs.

Seriously, how many brethren were at Pentecost? 120. 12X10. a symbol of the whole church for all time, but that's just my opinion. There is no reason why 120 can't be literal Now that I mention it, of all the woman that were at Pentecost, it would average out to approx. 60. Why was there only one woman listed with a proper name? It's the "M" word. It usually sparks a firestorm around here.

A majority of Protestant churches have no art in them whatsoever. I have had 3 lengthy "discussions" with iconoclastic Protestants who think that any piece of art: painting, sculptures, crucifixes, even wearing a small cross...is idolatry. I even had one "Bible Christian" idiot say a crucifix manipulated emotions and was therefore witchcraft. The mantra is, "show me in the bible", "show me in the bible"... OK, show ME in the Bible where it says that scriptural art is forbidden. It's a teaching signature.
No one has offered any yet.

 

[epostle]

4. Let take "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars". This presents some controversy, but it is reasonable to conclude that she represents believing Israel, the 12 stars representing the twelve tribes. Messiah -- the one who rules all nations with a rod of iron -- is her child in that the Lord descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and David. And her believing remnant is preserved in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years.

A "child" cannot be born from a nation. All "children", including the Messiah, are born from their mother, they are not born from ancestors. Your "reasonable to conclude" is illogical and unreasonable. Your interpretation is an excuse to throw Jesus' mother out of the Bible. He is not pleased.

 

[epostle]

And that question is not hard to answer. Almost everything symbolic is also explained, either in Revelation, or in Daniel, or in other prophetic portions of Scripture.

Jer. 33:17 For thus saith the Lord: There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.

Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.

 

[epostle]

Has anyone answered to all such in fact ?
Good works do not get anyone into Heaven.

The loaded question fallacy.

I don't think that she did get saved or gave the salvation message to anyone.

Just because Catholic salvation theology is different from yours does not make us wrong.

I think she did say you can get to heaven in other religions.

No, she didn't say that.

The media and TV promote her works and I say good on her for doing such but that's not what Jesus wanted from us. but such is what the worldly truly only love, even Satanist love that.

St. Mother Teresa did not embrace poverty to be a celebrity, but because it's what Jesus wanted from her.

No one can come along and say what we understand she was doing was wrong or a bad thing as to carnal man, it's great even Satan would love it. Satan is not a bad thing to atheist because it's just the works of man and his ego trip at work.
Go talk to an atheist and ask about her and you will see them in awe and they will get angered and try to turn on you with hatred, just like they did with Jesus, if you speak the truth.
They want the Kingdome but they don't want God in it.
They think they can do it all on there own, but history has proven that we can't do it, such has always failed in the past.

It's ironic how many "faith alone" Protestants do good works, and have their faith ultimately perfected.
Yet St. Mother Teresa, and other Catholics, are often accused of "works righteousness". It's another way of saying "you have no grace". It's a stupid insult. St. Mother Teresa professed "grace alone" the same as Protestants. We think she was given a trainload of grace. There is no way she could have accomplished that much on her own efforts. "
Not all of us are called to do great things, but we can do little things with great love." SMT

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy, nothing much left to read.
You've explained it all perfectly ...
BTW, welcome.

Thank you for the compliment GodsGrace. It was just some research/copy/paste, lol.
Appreciate the welcome . See around the forum!
God Bless and enjoy your day!
nancy

 

[Nancy]

Do bad works get us into heaven?
What's wrong with works?

You should think highly of M.Teresa.
She actually lived the gospel message.
Isn't this what Jesus wanted?

That's how I see it as well God's Grace. She hated publicity, never ever blew her own horn and, they (Hindu's) knew what her faith entailed. And...they SAW and EXPERIENCED Jesus hands and love through her. How in the world can ANYBODY judge someone else's motives of the heart---they cannot.
-nancy

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GG,
I usually avoid discussions with rebelation and whore duh babble-on addicts. 144,000 is a symbolic number, 12X12X1000 can be whatever one wants it to be. Yes, 12 tribes and 12 Apostles. Jesus picked 12 not because it was cheaper by the dozen. Therefore 144,000 is a symbolic number because all the verses around it are symbolic
A dozen eggs X 12 chickens X 1000 chicken farms hatching more eggs.

Seriously, how many brethren were at Pentecost? 120. 12X10. a symbol of the whole church for all time, but that's just my opinion. There is no reason why 120 can't be literal Now that I mention it, of all the woman that were at Pentecost, it would average out to approx. 60. Why was there only one woman listed with a proper name? It's the "M" word. It usually sparks a firestorm around here.

A majority of Protestant churches have no art in them whatsoever. I have had 3 lengthy "discussions" with iconoclastic Protestants who think that any piece of art: painting, sculptures, crucifixes, even wearing a small cross...is idolatry. I even had one "Bible Christian" idiot say a crucifix manipulated emotions and was therefore witchcraft. The mantra is, "show me in the bible", "show me in the bible"... OK, show ME in the Bible where it says that scriptural art is forbidden. It's a teaching signature.
No one has offered any yet.

LOL
babble-on addicts?
The M word?
It made me laugh, but I guess it's not so funny.

Could it be that someone in the upper room said:
"Now, let's count everyone here so that when Acts is written, Luke will know exactly how many persons to write about".

Yes. I think it could get kind of silly. I've often said that scripture is a complete idea and to pull verses out, and even WORDS nowadays, is kind of missing the whole point of why the N.T. was put together. Which is to let us know about Jesus and His life in general and how He was the light of God, and IS God. Why we should "listen to Him"...

As to religious art, what would man have done without it?
Here is the N.T. of the early times, up until maybe 1500 to 1600...

• 

• 

• 

• 

• 

And much more.
They couldn't read or write back then,,,this is all they had.
Anyway, pictures make things more real.

If people want to think we're worshipping the picture or art form, well, what can I say?

God created beauty, and what could be more beautiful than images of Him and His life and story?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Not sure what you mean by "maybe not true". Let's keep in mind that we are discussing a city that is actually beyond the grasp of mere mortals. But whatever needed to be revealed has been revealed.

I agree that we will be living in the New Jerusalem, but since the light radiating from this city will light the earth, "no windows" would be incorrect. While windows are not mentioned in Revelation, the fact that all the saints presently in the New Jerusalem are witnesses of the saints on earth (Heb 12:1) could mean that perhaps it is totally transparent, therefore no need for windows.

Maybe true, so that if it were an orb, it would light up the sky
exceptions
New Jerusalem is approximately the same size as the moon
there are gates in and out of it