The timing of the 6th seal

[Enoch111]

Heb, you might like to consider the time lines below

That diagram is very misleading and inaccurate.

Daniel's 70th week is yet future, and the first 3 1/2 years will correspond to the reign of the Antichrist. The last 3 1/2 years are for the Great Tribulation. None of this occurred in the first century.

Also taking 1260 days ( 3 1/2 years) and arbitrarily making them into 1260 years is more like sleight of hand than Bible interpretation.

 

[Heb 13:8]

how did that manifest?

Above us!

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

ouranos: heaven
Original Word: οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os')
Short Definition: the sky, the heaven
Definition: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens.

 

[Heb 13:8]

That is not possible. For a proper understanding of the DOTL study the OT.

Rapture - 1Th 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Second Coming - 2Th 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

New Earth - 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Also all your references to angels are fine in context. But not in the context of the 6th seal (all heavenly bodies):

REV 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun [heavenly body] became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon [heavenly body] became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven [heavenly bodies] fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven [where heavenly bodies exist] departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Hmm, stars of heaven. You make a good point. Ok, so if the sixth seal is at the end of the 70th week, then where do the trumpets and bowls and 7th seal come in??

 

[Jay Ross]

Have you read Ellen White, Jay?

To which I responded with the following question.

Was the diagram that you attached to your post above a representation of the things that Ellen G White had taught during her lifetime?

To which you responded with: -

Im not familiar with that. Have you read Ellen White?

After which Bakelite chimed in with : -

Regardless of who has taught it, or parts thereof, in the past; regardless of who teaches it today; why not simply look at the evidence and judge it on its own merits?

I then responded to your response with: -

Quitethinker, to provide a diagram without also providing the source data as to who generated the diagram in the first place and from where the diagram can be sourced now, is not an acceptable practice where information is being exchanged.

I also responded to brakelite using the diagram, quitethinker had attached to his previous post, as my source data and also scripture to frame my above post where I suggested that the diagram was flawed and was consistent with SDA theological teaching.

Can you both explain to me why reading Ellen White would cause me to change my mind to say that quitethinker's presented diagram was not flawed.

What merit is there for me to read Ellen White when her written material is now around 100 years out of date and when a number of the biblically recorded prophecies have been fulfilled during this same time 100 year time period after her death to which she was not privy too, considering that she died in 1915, i.e. a. the restoring of the nation living in the Land of the Chaldeans, b. the dividing of Jerusalem into three partitions under the control of three different entities, namely, Britain, Jordon and the League of nations. c. The return of some of Abraham's descendants 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, in their own strength, without any apparent help from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, just to highlight a few of the fulfilled prophecies from the OT and the NT.

It seems to me that you are both taking this thread down the same rabbit hole that I went down with Willie T in the "A blow by blow account of Revelations."

That is not profitable for anyone.

Shalom.

 

[quietthinker]

Above us!

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

ouranos: heaven
Original Word: οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os')
Short Definition: the sky, the heaven
Definition: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens.

All very unintelligible to me Heb. I can't make sense of any of your replies to my questions. Give me something i can get my head around.

 

[quietthinker]

If you

To which I responded with the following question.



To which you responded with: -



After which Bakelite chimed in with : -



I then responded to your response with: -



I also responded to brakelite using the diagram, quitethinker had attached to his previous post, as my source data and also scripture to frame my above post where I suggested that the diagram was flawed and was consistent with SDA theological teaching.

Can you both explain to me why reading Ellen White would cause me to change my mind to say that quitethinker's presented diagram was not flawed.

What merit is there for me to read Ellen White when her written material is now around 100 years out of date and when a number of the biblically recorded prophecies have been fulfilled during this same time 100 year time period after her death to which she was not privy too, considering that she died in 1915, i.e. a. the restoring of the nation living in the Land of the Chaldeans, b. the dividing of Jerusalem into three partitions under the control of three different entities, namely, Britain, Jordon and the League of nations. c. The return of some of Abraham's descendants 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, in their own strength, without any apparent help from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, just to highlight a few of the fulfilled prophecies from the OT and the NT.

It seems to me that you are both taking this thread down the same rabbit hole that I went down with Willie T in the "A blow by blow account of Revelations."

That is not profitable for anyone.

Shalom.

Jay, If you haven't read EG White you are in no position to comment on what she has written. There is no mystery here.

I haven't read all of her stuff but what I've read is clear that she loves Jesus and that her passion is none other than him and directing folk to him. So, check her out and we'll be able to pow wow some more.

Soooo, for me, rule number one is, don't comment on any author irrespective of how much I have heard from others on that author good or bad until I've read them sufficiently to form an opinion which if questioned I have something definitive to go by. Thats the merit.
Rule number two is, make an effort to be objective.
Rule number three is don't beat around the bush and don't use avoidance, projection, diversion, name calling or any of that tricky business where pride is in the drivers seat. Get to the point in a reasonable amount of words or time, the briefer the better.

I desire that folk interact with me in no less a fashion.

Regards the diagram, we have a starting point, 'from the going forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem' after the Babylonian captivity.
Then it's a matter of determining how to interpret the prophetic 'day' which I'm persuaded is a literal year for a day in prophecy. From there we are in a good position to determine from when to where.

On another note, it is possible to construct a view using scripture selectively, interpreting events in ways that shore up certain theories. It's a clever trick and not uncommon. Isn't that what the Jews did in Jesus day. They didn't want to see any other way than the way they were seeing. It cost them their City and their lives.

Its a bit like this, If you can speak a language well and another also claims to be able to speak that language, it doesn't take that long for you to determine how much of a grasp they have after they open their mouth.

There is of course much more to be said about this.

 

[Enoch111]

Hmm, stars of heaven. You make a good point. Ok, so if the sixth seal is at the end of the 70th week, then where do the trumpets and bowls and 7th seal come in??

All the 7th seal events (a part of the Great Tribulation) will precede the 6th seal events, and that is confirmed in the Olivet Discourse (which is chronological in Matthew).

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains... (Mt 24:15,16)

THE GREAT TRIBULATION
For then shall be [the] great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21)
[note: in Revelation it is "the tribulation the great" in the Greek]

SIXTH SEAL EVENTS
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken... (Mt 24:29)

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, If you haven't read EG White you are in no position to comment on what she has written. There is no mystery here.

I haven't read all of her stuff but what I've read is clear that she loves Jesus and that her passion is none other than him and directing folk to him. So, check her out and we'll be able to pow wow some more.

What have your comments here got to do with the diagram that you posted? My wife laughed at your words as she said, they have nothing to do with the topic.

Soooo, for me, rule number one is, don't comment on any author irrespective of how much I have heard from others on that author good or bad until I've read them sufficiently to form an opinion which if questioned I have something definitive to go by. Thats the merit.

That is your opinion.

Rule number two is, make an effort to be objective.

Do you actually follow this rule when you already hold a biased opinion?

Rule number three is don't beat around the bush and don't use avoidance, projection, diversion, name calling or any of that tricky business where pride is in the drivers seat. Get to the point in a reasonable amount of words or time, the briefer the better.

You have used all of the above to defend your precious POV.

I desire that folk interact with me in no less a fashion.

But they do.

Regards the diagram, we have a starting point, 'from the going forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem' after the Babylonian captivity.
Then it's a matter of determining how to interpret the prophetic 'day' which I'm persuaded is a literal year for a day in prophecy. From there we are in a good position to determine from when to where.

I have no argument or disagreement with you there. I also agree with your following statement: -

On another note, it is possible to construct a view using scripture selectively, interpreting events in ways that shore up certain theories. It's a clever trick and not uncommon. Isn't that what the Jews did in Jesus day. They didn't want to see any other way than the way they were seeing. It cost them their City and their lives.

And that is the problem that will come out in the wash. I know that I do not use scripture selectively as I allow the scripture to speak for itself without forcing an interpretation that is contrary with it.

Its a bit like this, If you can speak a language well and another also claims to be able to speak that language, it doesn't take that long for you to determine how much of a grasp they have after they open their mouth.

What has speaking a language got to do with communicating an understanding? Absolutely nothing. Language understanding does not demonstrate the understanding of a person as you are suggesting.

If the Metadata held by the parties communicating is the same, then the ideas expressed should be transmitted without any loss in the communication and the receiver should be able to come to the same understanding as the person who is generating the communication.

Shalom

 

[quietthinker]

Jay, as a refresher, you commented in post 13 re the diagram 'probably was generated by Ellen White' to which my response was, have you read her. You did not answer the question and continued to dodge it. It is this that is being addressed between you and me so your wifes laughter and statement is misplaced.

Not understanding my simple analogy of speaking a language is unfortunate. For you to then the expand the analogy to make it mean other than intended only means it is hidden from you.

 

[Heb 13:8]

All very unintelligible to me Heb. I can't make sense of any of your replies to my questions. Give me something i can get my head around.

quietthinker, rev 12:1-5 sign came to fulfillment in the sun, moon, stars and constellations on 9/23/17.

Job 9:9 He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.

Job 38:32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rev...QsAQIKA&biw=1396&bih=662#imgrc=sm0YnxJlKUCQ1M:

God bless

 

[Heb 13:8]

All the 7th seal events (a part of the Great Tribulation) will precede the 6th seal events, and that is confirmed in the Olivet Discourse (which is chronological in Matthew).

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains... (Mt 24:15,16)

THE GREAT TRIBULATION
For then shall be [the] great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21)
[note: in Revelation it is "the tribulation the great" in the Greek]

SIXTH SEAL EVENTS
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken... (Mt 24:29)

Ok, so you believe the 7th seal is prior to 6th seal. I wonder why God did it that way, probably to keep the devil confused?

 

[quietthinker]

quietthinker, rev 12:1-5 sign came to fulfillment in the sun, moon, stars and constellations on 9/23/17.

Job 9:9 He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.

Job 38:32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rev...QsAQIKA&biw=1396&bih=662#imgrc=sm0YnxJlKUCQ1M:

God bless

Sorry, don't buy that one.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, as a refresher, you commented in post 13 re the diagram 'probably was generated by Ellen White' to which my response was, have you read her. You did not answer the question and continued to dodge it. It is this that is being addressed between you and me so your wifes laughter and statement is misplaced.

Not understanding my simple analogy of speaking a language is unfortunate. For you to then the expand the analogy to make it mean other than intended only means it is hidden from you.

No I have not read books written by EG White. However, can you provide the author of the diagram that you posted and the source where it can be found. This information is of interest as it would prove beyond any doubt that my comment was misplaced.

After Googling 1844 SDA, your posted diagram popped up which claimed that the diagram was/is used in SDA circles.

It also provided the following link: - http://christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/the-little-horn-and-2300-days-of-daniel-8/ with an outline of the 1844 Great Disappointment.

I also found a source on the net for the diagram that you posted and it clearly states that it is an SDA Prophecy chart. However, the diagram or something similar, may have been generated from the work/teaching of William Miller. If this is the case then the diagram may have been penned by William Miller.

Other sources were focus on discrediting the SDA and their belief systems. One link that I saw was: -
christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/the-little-horn-and-2300-days-of-daniel-8/

That being said, I do not have the time or the resources to spend more time considering this matter further.

Now, your language analogy was unfortunate as it was dependant on the Metadata of the participants. Even though I speak a variation of the English Language, because of the construction rules, i.e. bias of the language that I use, it does not mean that your understanding of what I might be saying is understood. The same is also true for understanding someone else's interpretations of Biblical Prophecy. The language Metadata may not be the same and so to be able to judge whether or not a person can speak the "language" as your analogy implies, we only have to listen to them speak to determine if they can speak the language, is also not true. The issue may lie with the other person. The issue may be your bias Metadata may actually hide any understanding, of what the other person is speaking, from you.

You state that I made your simple analogy of speaking a language more complex is not a true statement as Language communication is a complex issue. Simply moving from one state to another, does not mean that I will always understand what is being said. To have understanding the Metadata of both parties must be identical so that there can be understanding such that the understanding of the person receiving the verbal communication can come to the same understanding of the intended meaning as the communicator.

For example the meaning of the word "thong" between our two countries is completely different. I put a thong on my each of my feet to walk around on whereas you wear a "thong" because it is your descriptive word for a particular form of underwear.

Now by you not providing clarity as to the source and originator of the diagram that you posted, you are in reality saying something like, "I know something that you don't know, hee ha, hee ha." without being willing to clear up the matter quickly. A very dishonest form of argument. Know what I mean.

It does not change my conclusion and understanding of the original diagram.

 

[quietthinker]

No I have not read books written by EG White. However, can you provide the author of the diagram that you posted and the source where it can be found. This information is of interest as it would prove beyond any doubt that my comment was misplaced.

After Googling 1844 SDA, your posted diagram popped up which claimed that the diagram was/is used in SDA circles.

It also provided the following link: - http://christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/the-little-horn-and-2300-days-of-daniel-8/ with an outline of the 1844 Great Disappointment.

I also found a source on the net for the diagram that you posted and it clearly states that it is an SDA Prophecy chart. However, the diagram or something similar, may have been generated from the work/teaching of William Miller. If this is the case then the diagram may have been penned by William Miller.

Other sources were focus on discrediting the SDA and their belief systems. One link that I saw was: -
christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/the-little-horn-and-2300-days-of-daniel-8/

That being said, I do not have the time or the resources to spend more time considering this matter further.

Now, your language analogy was unfortunate as it was dependant on the Metadata of the participants. Even though I speak a variation of the English Language, because of the construction rules, i.e. bias of the language that I use, it does not mean that your understanding of what I might be saying is understood. The same is also true for understanding someone else's interpretations of Biblical Prophecy. The language Metadata may not be the same and so to be able to judge whether or not a person can speak the "language" as your analogy implies, we only have to listen to them speak to determine if they can speak the language, is also not true. The issue may lie with the other person. The issue may be your bias Metadata may actually hide any understanding, of what the other person is speaking, from you.

You state that I made your simple analogy of speaking a language more complex is not a true statement as Language communication is a complex issue. Simply moving from one state to another, does not mean that I will always understand what is being said. To have understanding the Metadata of both parties must be identical so that there can be understanding such that the understanding of the person receiving the verbal communication can come to the same understanding of the intended meaning as the communicator.

For example the meaning of the word "thong" between our two countries is completely different. I put a thong on my each of my feet to walk around on whereas you wear a "thong" because it is your descriptive word for a particular form of underwear.

Now by you not providing clarity as to the source and originator of the diagram that you posted, you are in reality saying something like, "I know something that you don't know, hee ha, hee ha." without being willing to clear up the matter quickly. A very dishonest form of argument. Know what I mean.

It does not change my conclusion and understanding of the original diagram.

Jay, I have no idea who drew up the diagram and frankly, it matters not to me who did. What matters is whether its content has integrity.

Re language... even in its simplest form, you have missed my point.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Sorry, don't buy that one.

I know, the majority of the world doesn't. They all think it's astrology. Very sad.

 

[Enoch111]

Ok, so you believe the 7th seal is prior to 6th seal. I wonder why God did it that way, probably to keep the devil confused?

I have always been puzzled by this since Revelation is generally chronological. But you may have a point.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, I have no idea who drew up the diagram and frankly, it matters not to me who did. What matters is whether its content has integrity.

Well, can we then agree, that the diagram has no integrity, as it is not a true representation of the Biblical Prophecies it purports to show on the generated timeline in the diagram.

 

[quietthinker]

Well, can we then agree, that the diagram has no integrity, as it is not a true representation of the Biblical Prophecies it purports to show on the generated timeline in the diagram.

where is it that you are at odds with it again?

 

[Jay Ross]

Is it worth replying if you have forgotten the thrust of what I had posted.

 

[quietthinker]

C'mon, just tell me.
There were a few decrees. The one most definitive was in 457BC. Easily researched.