Focusing on Hell is all about Ego

[Naomi25]

But what is repentance? I believe it is acknowledging Christ’s love sacrifice and offer to restore our Garden relationship and a willingness to turn 180 degrees from distorted self love and begin to love outwardly. This takes practice and the power of the Holy Spirit. Focusing on flogging ourselves and wallowing in the mire of self reproach is a luxury we cannot afford....it gets in the way of our sanctification. Furthermore, abusive parents punish without a chance of redemption - it is called torture. I treat my dog with more compassion than many Christian’s view of God’s bloodlust towards humanity

Well, yes, I agree. But, for us to receive this restoration of our garden relationship, we must first confess our sinfulness and ask forgiveness. We can't ignore this part of our redemption, it is clearly spelled out in scripture: "Repent!"
But I heartily agree that once we have forgiveness in Christ that we don't need to...we shouldn't flog ourselves in regards to our flaws. Be realistic about them, sure. Repent from them, sure! But we are not slaves to them anymore and have the freedom to do all this knowing God sees us as he sees his Son.
I don't know that I can see eye to eye with you on the "most Christian's view of God's bloodlust towards humanity". I know it's a very deep and emotional topic, because it, well...it matters so much. It matters because we're talking about who our God is, and there cannot be anything more important, can there? The thing is, we cannot shrug aside that God himself calls for blood to pay for sin. Because blood is life. The bible is too full of this idea for anyone to ignore it, really. I think the question we have to ask about it, the one that really establishes our God's character, is...has he made a way for us to avoid paying with our blood? And the answer is yes. Our God, while being completely holy and therefore MUST having payment against sin, still loves us enough to send HIS beloved son to die in our place. This is the Gospel, this is the miracle. And this is why our God is both Just, Holy, and Loving and Good.
In all the 'religions' of the world, only Christianity has a God that extends a hand towards his children. Every other 'god' tells his followers what they must do to reach him. God sends his Son so that we can have that Garden relationship restored! It's staggering, when we think on it, really. That an almighty being that created the universe through will alone, would send his son to die for his own creation that had rebelled against him in the first place. How can we doubt the love and grace or the commitment he's shown, or the length he's gone to save us??
It's like, if you'll forgive me using an analogy: having a deep hole, but then providing a ladder, a rope pulley AND a lift, to get out of it...and people only look at the hole! Yes there's hell...yes there IS a consequence for our sinful actions. BUT God has provided a way out that is beyond our wildest dreams. How can we look at that and then only call him blood thirsty?
Anyway...sorry, got babbling a bit there, but you probably get my point!

 

[Naomi25]

I think if we were equal beings with God in everyway but authority, you would be right. Teachers, employers, political learders are equal with their underlings in everyway but authority and therefore, have the moral authority to punish rebellion. I do not have the right to punish my dog in the same manner because he is not capable of understanding or complying in the same manner - in fact, he has no idea that eating cat poop is so displeasing to me or even that it is bad for his health - all he responds to is redirction - every other response is as effective as spanking an infant

And yet, if your dog was to do something, like, kill a sheep, or another dog, you would still need to take some sort of action, wouldn't you? You cannot accept all actions from a dog, just because he is not the same sort of "being" as you.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sorry, but, how is 'eternal' and 'always going to occur this way' any different, really, except one is shorter than the other, and therefore slightly more efficient?
They both give credence to the notion that an event will continue on indefinitely, yes?

well sure, but then in phrases like "your eternal life" the "your" would be understood collectively; you know, the way Christians like to interpret the "you'll" in "You'll see Him come down the same way they saw Him go up." So iow from a less self-centered pov. Bc really there is no reason "Your eternal life" could not be read "Mankind's eternal life."

Also i guess "indefinitely" is also being assumed, eternal is not immortal, etc.
we use Eternal to mean Unchanging or Forever, right, and a point is maybe to contemplate Scripture from povs other than a naturally assumed one, a self-centered one. Not to find some new fact so much as grasp a new way of thinking.

So see how i could maybe say "your eternal life" to a crowd of humans and mean "for as long as humans exist" even though everyone else is hearing "my immortal soul," simply bc "your" can be interpreted how you like. For that matter if i were to address "you" directly and say "you are never going to die, at least not until another comet hits or you fall into the sun or something" the statement would already be valid to the flora in your gut, which actually have a far stronger claim to existence than this "you" that we started out talking about! They likely control "your" thoughts even. And they'll be fine even after "you" die

 

[marksman]

Cant quite agree there.
Jesus whole focus was always upon His Father. He had no other focus. He may have spoken about hell...but it was not His life's focus or passion. Which I believe is what @aspen is talking about.

Some people...and I am sure we have all met them...are obsessed with hell and damnation...even some preachers talk more about the negative than the positive .

It is "The Joy of The Lord is Your Strength"...nothing else.

Phil 4 8 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

I try to be very careful with my words but in writing one can see what one is trying to say without realising another spin is possible.

If you thought I implied that hell was a focus of Jesus, I must make it clear that I was only conveying facts to point out what Jesus message was.

The New Testament has many messages conveyed by the writers and to really understand what it is all about we need the whole counsel of God. This is evident by those denominations that are built around half a dozen scriptures that they have taken for their emphasis and they pronounce that is the message of the bible, preferring to ignore the other 125 messages especially when they require of us that which we do not want to give.

After all, wouldn't we rather hear about how God can make us rich and ignore those passages that talk about the suffering of the believer.

 

[Naomi25]

well sure, but then in phrases like "your eternal life" the "your" would be understood collectively; you know, the way Christians like to interpret the "you'll" in "You'll see Him come down the same way they saw Him go up." So iow from a less self-centered pov. Bc really there is no reason "Your eternal life" could not be read "Mankind's eternal life."

Also i guess "indefinitely" is also being assumed, eternal is not immortal, etc.
we use Eternal to mean Unchanging or Forever, right, and a point is maybe to contemplate Scripture from povs other than a naturally assumed one, a self-centered one. Not to find some new fact so much as grasp a new way of thinking.

So see how i could maybe say "your eternal life" to a crowd of humans and mean "for as long as humans exist" even though everyone else is hearing "my immortal soul," simply bc "your" can be interpreted how you like. For that matter if i were to address "you" directly and say "you are never going to die, at least not until another comet hits or you fall into the sun or something" the statement would already be valid to the flora in your gut, which actually have a far stronger claim to existence than this "you" that we started out talking about! They likely control "your" thoughts even. And they'll be fine even after "you" die

I think you are way over-analyzing it and simply don't need to. In scripture we have the description of people either going into "eternal punishment and everlasting contempt" or "eternal life and everlasting life". (Matt 25:46; Dan 12:2)
So, no matter which way we 'go', which audience we are talking to, we each have an eternal, or everlasting future ahead of us.

I don't quite get where you're going with your gut flora and your "your" point. Are you, perhaps, saying that we can't know which part of a person may survive on? That in that regard, saying 'your' is deceptive, or at least vague?
If this is what you are saying, I would have to disagree. I think the bible is clear that a person is made up of body and soul, and that after death, we can exist apart for a while, but we are not made to be that way. When God brings history to an end and 'resurrects' the dead, everyone will be reunited with their bodies...some to the resurrection of life, some to the resurrection of death (Dan 12:2; John 5:29; Acts 24:15). In this way we will be complete again for "eternity". We also know that those who have not accepted Christ will be in a place where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth". This implies a very real, consciousness. It will not be gut flora that survives after death, but both body and soul.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think you are way over-analyzing it and simply don't need to. In scripture we have the description of people either going into "eternal punishment and everlasting contempt" or "eternal life and everlasting life". (Matt 25:46; Dan 12:2)
So, no matter which way we 'go', which audience we are talking to, we each have an eternal, or everlasting future ahead of us.

word, can't think of a better way to put it myself. Wastrels today are treated to the same tossing on the burning pile that they were 2000 years ago, i guess. The only sin would be to imagine that all that applies to some afterlife i guess huh, in the face of all the Evidence to the contrary;
all go to the same place
the dead know nothing
you and your sons will be here with me

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't quite get where you're going with your gut flora and your "your" point. Are you, perhaps, saying that we can't know which part of a person may survive on? That in that regard, saying 'your' is deceptive, or at least vague?

or both, yes, a good way to hide wisdom from the wise, right out in the open imo. Not saying that we don't know which part survives though, the point there is more like we don't know what constitutes "us" to begin with, so we neglect essential parts of "us" and then suffer for it imo. The only person who knows the "you" that you would surely describe as your "self" is you; know one else would even be able to identify who you were talking about. For instance i would be impressed if you could ID a single one of the 1500+- species in your gut that you must have to function properly, aside from maybe lactobacillus--an entire family--and even then prolly no individual species, right.

So wadr of course it would not strike most of us as strange or hypocritical that a person in this state would simultaneously take antibiotics to relieve symptoms brought on by the poor choices of the "self" while at the same time boldly proclaiming their belief in the final state of that self--that they cannot even identify properly, and do not even realize that they are killing--and hopefully you understand that i am generalizing, and none of this may apply to you specifically, ok

 

[bbyrd009]

It will not be gut flora that survives after death, but both body and soul.

body and soul survive after death now, who knew?
ok Naomi, have a nice weekend

 

[bbyrd009]

I think you are way over-analyzing it and simply don't need to. In scripture we have the description of people either going into "eternal punishment and everlasting contempt" or "eternal life and everlasting life". (Matt 25:46; Dan 12:2)
So, no matter which way we 'go'

all go to the same place, so fwiw i would suggest interpreting all that in the context of Understand I AM
and understand when a Christian is supposed to have died

 

[Naomi25]

or both, yes, a good way to hide wisdom from the wise, right out in the open imo. Not saying that we don't know which part survives though, the point there is more like we don't know what constitutes "us" to begin with, so we neglect essential parts of "us" and then suffer for it imo. The only person who knows the "you" that you would surely describe as your "self" is you; know one else would even be able to identify who you were talking about. For instance i would be impressed if you could ID a single one of the 1500+- species in your gut that you must have to function properly, aside from maybe lactobacillus--an entire family--and even then prolly no individual species, right.

So wadr of course it would not strike most of us as strange or hypocritical that a person in this state would simultaneously take antibiotics to relieve symptoms brought on by the poor choices of the "self" while at the same time boldly proclaiming their belief in the final state of that self--that they cannot even identify properly, and do not even realize that they are killing--and hopefully you understand that i am generalizing, and none of this may apply to you specifically, ok

I am so sorry, bbyrd, I just have absolutely no blessed idea what you are talking about here. I've gone over it several times, even backwards, and I just have no idea.

body and soul survive after death now, who knew?
ok Naomi, have a nice weekend

Um. The bible knew. You know how Christ comes back with a body? One that eats, and touches? After the resurrection we will have our new bodies that will be like his.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. - 1 Corinthians 15:20–23

But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. - 1 Corinthians 15:35–37

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. - 1 Corinthians 15:42–44

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. - 1 Corinthians 15:49

Death requires us to forego our earthly bodies for a time. But in Christ we are promised to receive them again, made anew into spiritual bodies. So yes...in essence, once the enemy of death is conquered, our bodies and souls will go on. This is biblical fact, not fiction.

all go to the same place, so fwiw i would suggest interpreting all that in the context of Understand I AM
and understand when a Christian is supposed to have died

Again, I have no idea what you're saying here, sorry. It seems like half a sentence, or thought. "all go to the same place"? Who? Why? Did I say that? Are you saying that? Don't get that, sorry...and if that's the basis of the rest of your thought...well, then. And then the rest is also seemingly cut off thoughts. Can you please try and spell it out a little clearer?

 

[bbyrd009]

I am so sorry, bbyrd, I just have absolutely no blessed idea what you are talking about here.

ya, i know; prolly not for you then i guess. i could post some links to make the points if you like, for instance "you reap what you sow" includes reaping autistic, cancerous children, who after all did not sow anything, right; so who is the "you" there for instance, also
A DIFFERENT VERSION OF YOU EXISTS IN MINDS OF EVERYONE WHO KNOWS YOU.
can be searched, it's more of a concept that is again making the rounds,
and can you identify any of the species in your gut, or not? they are all "you" too, right, and they have certain needs that surely are not being met, heck, not even addressed...that is still not strong enough language, you are most likely their worst enemy lol

and this person that i have just described, generally speaking, likes to say it "loves God" and "Jesus is Lord" in the hope that it will get to go to an Eternal Party with Them--in some undetermined "tomorrow" of course, unless they got lucky enough to be born in the Special Snowflake generation that gets to ride on the back of Jesuses White Horse and never die, bc that's what the Bible says right--and have tea and cookies and stuff, after it has taken another course of antibiotics to get rid of those pesky self-ingested critters that are eating it alive, because that is what parasites are for, to attack the weak and eliminate them from the gene pool. But don't worry, Doctors will save us, they are working on men having babies right now!

It will be a miracle, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

Um. The bible knew.

Quote it then

You know how Christ comes back with a body? One that eats, and touches?

nope, i'll need you to Quote that too, sorry. If Christ has never left you nor forsook you, Naomi, how did He "return" in a "body?"
Wadr i know where the Body of Christ is, and you should, too?

i have to go um be really sad and rethink my whole prog here for a minute, i might be back ok. but i might not too. in which case i hope the best for you k

 

[bbyrd009]

Death requires us to forego our earthly bodies for a time. But in Christ we are promised to receive them again, made anew into spiritual bodies. So yes...in essence, once the enemy of death is conquered, our bodies and souls will go on. This is biblical fact, not fiction.

sorry Naomi, but in the context you have placed it, it is pure fiction. And i guess i could fill the page with refutes that will not make any sense to you, i guess, so i dunno what to even say now that you could hear. You died in Adam but you were still walking around and more or less doing just fine, right. So where did we get the idea that New Life in Christ involved something "new in the world," that is not ever going to happen?

 

[Phoneman777]

Your OP may, however unintentionally, offend our catholic friends.

Papist John Tetzel was commissioned to travel to many towns and villages spread abroad over the vast 16th century papal kingdom and raise money by selling "certificates of forgiveness", and wherever he stopped the first thing he did was unfurl huge banners depicting the dearly departed shrieking in agony amidst the flames of the afterlife - a shocking spectacle to the horrified crowds gathered around him - which was immediately followed by his famous sales pitch, "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs." - a campaign of that is responsible for the construction of St. Peter's Basilica that stands today. No record of him ever preaching repentance for the sake of Christ's love and righteousness.

 

[bbyrd009]

Again, I have no idea what you're saying here, sorry. It seems like half a sentence, or thought. "all go to the same place"? Who? Why? Did I say that? Are you saying that? Don't get that, sorry...and if that's the basis of the rest of your thought...well, then. And then the rest is also seemingly cut off thoughts. Can you please try and spell it out a little clearer?

all go to the same place, so fwiw i would suggest interpreting all that in the context of Understand I AM
and understand when a Christian is supposed to have died

Ecclesiastes 3:20 for the first one, or search "you and your sons will be here with me" for a Witness
(Saul = rejected, Samuel = accepted, yet both are in the same "place" now, iow)
the second one is basically another way to say "today is the day," or "NOW is all that matters,"
"thief in the night" is what obtains from not understanding this principle, this Biblical truth that is going to render your facts moot imo, and you were supposed to "die" at baptism, isn't that right?

 

[Phoneman777]

Ecclesiastes 3:20 for the first one, or search "you and your sons will be here with me" for a Witness
(Saul = rejected, Samuel = accepted, yet both are in the same "place" now, iow)
the second one is basically another way to say "today is the day," or "NOW is all that matters,"
"thief in the night" is what obtains from not understanding this principle, this Biblical truth that is going to render your facts moot imo, and you were supposed to "die" at baptism, isn't that right?

On the scales of "It was/It wasn't Samuel" which spoke to Saul, I place the following:

Was Samuel scale:

• The Bible refers to him as "Samuel"

Wasn't Samuel scale:

• Solomon says the dead do not possess knowledge
• Solomon says the dead do not possess wisdom
• Solomon says the dead do not possess emotions
• Solomon says the dead do not possess a memory
• Solomon says the dead cannot perform work
• Solomon says the dead cannot lay plans
• Solomon says the dead no longer have anything to do anything done under the sun

(all of the above "Samuel" demonstrated)

• God ceased speaking to Saul which excludes all forms of communication, including speaking through prophets.
• Job says the dead do not return to the land of the living
• Job says the dead do not know whether men ascend to the heights of success or sink into the depths of despair
• "Samuel" came "up from below" instead of "down from the heavenly courts of God"
• The witch of Endor was said to have a "familiar spirit" which is a spirit - not a dead person - that manifests itself as one familiar to the living (for the obvious purpose of deception)

It seems the scales tip way over to show "Samuel" was actually a demonic spirit of deception which knew the fate of Saul and his sons just as the "lying spirit" knew that Ahab would soon fall in battle, as well.

What say you, brother man?

 

[bbyrd009]

On the scales of "It was/It wasn't Samuel" which spoke to Saul, I place the following:

Was Samuel scale:

• The Bible refers to him as "Samuel"

Wasn't Samuel scale:

• Solomon says the dead do not possess knowledge
• Solomon says the dead do not possess wisdom
• Solomon says the dead do not possess emotions
• Solomon says the dead do not possess a memory
• Solomon says the dead cannot perform work
• Solomon says the dead cannot lay plans
• Solomon says the dead no longer have anything to do anything done under the sun

(all of the above "Samuel" demonstrated)

• God ceased speaking to Saul which excludes all forms of communication, including speaking through prophets.
• Job says the dead do not return to the land of the living
• Job says the dead do not know whether men ascend to the heights of success or sink into the depths of despair
• "Samuel" came "up from below" instead of "down from the heavenly courts of God"
• The witch of Endor was said to have a "familiar spirit" which is a spirit - not a dead person - that manifests itself as one familiar to the living (for the obvious purpose of deception)

It seems the scales tip way over to show "Samuel" was actually a demonic spirit of deception which knew the fate of Saul and his sons just as the "lying spirit" knew that Ahab would soon fall in battle, as well.

What say you, brother man?

i've heard this perspective before, and imo it should be considered, but after all i am able to find that we are not told that one cannot talk to the dead, but rather that we should not talk to them, meaning it must be possible. Necromancy is not impossible iow, just satanic. Also the passage even offers an apology or explanation of sorts, and the Witch is even forgiven by the King. Furthermore, Samuel's prediction came true. Also, and likely most important, we have many other Witnesses to the point made.

I would accept Solomon's warnings in the context of the living, and i def would not advise ppl to seek a Necromancer to predict the future for them, but that does not mean that Ahab did not die, right--so to speak--which was the point being witnessed to, by analogy.

Iow if you want to challenge the point, challenge the strongest member rather than the weakest maybe

 

[Phoneman777]

"...we are not told that one cannot talk to the dead, but rather that we should not talk to them, meaning it must be possible."

Thanks for the thoughtful response. What we know to be absolute is all that Solomon, Job, David, and many others say about the dead - they don't think, feel, praise God, lay plans, return to the land of the living, etc., etc., etc.

The other idea at one time did suggest to me that talking to the dead was possible - however further study led me to understand that this idea does not point to anything absolute because a prohibition need not necessarily demand that which is prohibited is possible - just as the prohibition against praying and worshiping false gods does not establish their existence - but such prohibition exists as a defense against some hidden danger - the danger of being deceived by "the spirits of devils working miracles".

 

[Naomi25]

ya, i know; prolly not for you then i guess. i could post some links to make the points if you like, for instance "you reap what you sow" includes reaping autistic, cancerous children, who after all did not sow anything, right; so who is the "you" there for instance, also
A DIFFERENT VERSION OF YOU EXISTS IN MINDS OF EVERYONE WHO KNOWS YOU.
can be searched, it's more of a concept that is again making the rounds,
and can you identify any of the species in your gut, or not? they are all "you" too, right, and they have certain needs that surely are not being met, heck, not even addressed...that is still not strong enough language, you are most likely their worst enemy lol

and this person that i have just described, generally speaking, likes to say it "loves God" and "Jesus is Lord" in the hope that it will get to go to an Eternal Party with Them--in some undetermined "tomorrow" of course, unless they got lucky enough to be born in the Special Snowflake generation that gets to ride on the back of Jesuses White Horse and never die, bc that's what the Bible says right--and have tea and cookies and stuff, after it has taken another course of antibiotics to get rid of those pesky self-ingested critters that are eating it alive, because that is what parasites are for, to attack the weak and eliminate them from the gene pool. But don't worry, Doctors will save us, they are working on men having babies right now!

It will be a miracle, right?

I'm sorry. But are you on drugs?

 

[aspen]

I think bbyd might be talking about people’s perception of others....and how perceptions do not match reality? Maybe?