That is right. Focusing on Hell is all about avoiding damnation......we were created for more than avoiding damnation. We serve a God that love us and has always wanted to be in free communion with us. Focusing on Hell to gain converts is demonic.
Focusing on Hell is all about Ego
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Prentis
New Member
A bold statement... And an interesting one 
I do agree we shouldn't be trying to save our lives. We should be looking to lose it and to give it away for the cause of Christ.
I think love is linked with the fear of the Lord. What we need is the fear of the Lord, the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell. As followers of Christ, we need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, knowing that God is no respecter of persons.
I think there are two sides of the issue; firstly, yes, we are here to teach people that the Lord love's them, that they would see he is for them and not against them, and wishes that all be saved; but secondly that the Lord is to be feared, because he is not a respecter of person. Yes, if we are humble, and we weep over our sins and weaknesses, then he is mighty to forgive, and if we have faith, he is mighty to strengthen us to do his will.
My point is this; I think we need both sides simultaneously, yet it's easy to pick one or the other.
I'm not directing this at anyone, by the way, just sharing the understanding I have of it.
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I want to add this. What I said above was from the point of view of believers, and what we need to have in the way we walk.
As far as those who are outside, not believers, we cannot judge them, and must love them. That might include telling them of the fear of the Lord, but not to try and scare them. We love him because he first loved us. In that, still, we dont neglect the fear of the Lord.
Honestly, I feel like I'm stumbling all over myself trying to explain this and not getting anywher! :lol: You can laugh at my post... lol
I just think we need both the fear and love of the Lord, together, but I can't seem to explain it right. Maybe I'm not supposed to :lol:
I do agree we shouldn't be trying to save our lives. We should be looking to lose it and to give it away for the cause of Christ.
I think love is linked with the fear of the Lord. What we need is the fear of the Lord, the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell. As followers of Christ, we need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, knowing that God is no respecter of persons.
I think there are two sides of the issue; firstly, yes, we are here to teach people that the Lord love's them, that they would see he is for them and not against them, and wishes that all be saved; but secondly that the Lord is to be feared, because he is not a respecter of person. Yes, if we are humble, and we weep over our sins and weaknesses, then he is mighty to forgive, and if we have faith, he is mighty to strengthen us to do his will.
My point is this; I think we need both sides simultaneously, yet it's easy to pick one or the other.
I'm not directing this at anyone, by the way, just sharing the understanding I have of it.
-----------------------------------------------------
I want to add this. What I said above was from the point of view of believers, and what we need to have in the way we walk.
As far as those who are outside, not believers, we cannot judge them, and must love them. That might include telling them of the fear of the Lord, but not to try and scare them. We love him because he first loved us. In that, still, we dont neglect the fear of the Lord.
Honestly, I feel like I'm stumbling all over myself trying to explain this and not getting anywher! :lol: You can laugh at my post... lol
I just think we need both the fear and love of the Lord, together, but I can't seem to explain it right. Maybe I'm not supposed to :lol:
I think calling it demonic is a bit too far, it could be a demonic gateway if one isn't careful. It has been part of a disscussion with theologians and philosophers since the dawn of time. I've had many people who I am trying to convert ask how such a loving God could could allow anyone to suffer like that. It's a difficult arguement usually and telling them, to sweep it under the rug doesn't win anybody over.
Robbie
New Member
Love you Aspen and thanks for what you're trying to spread... LOVE
If we still fear the Lord we don't really know Him yet... perfect love casts out fear... when we realize He is that perfect Love we won't be afraid anymore... I mean why would we be scared of someone who was willing to die for us even when we were at our worst most rebellious state against Them.
Once we realize we're unprofitable but He loves us anyways it sets us free because it's then we realize there's nothing we can do to earn His love... He already showed us the greatest sign of Love and He showed us that when we were at our worst... so why try and earn it unless it's to boost your ego and make you feel like you're in some way earning His love and in that seeing yourself as deserving it more than someone else.
In other words, "I'm not going to hell but those homosexuals are" Aspen's right... pure ego...
You want to give God the glory He deserves for His love towards you... recognize that He loves you despite the wretched sinner that you are... that's His glory... and yeah.. no glory for you... it's all His!!!
If we still fear the Lord we don't really know Him yet... perfect love casts out fear... when we realize He is that perfect Love we won't be afraid anymore... I mean why would we be scared of someone who was willing to die for us even when we were at our worst most rebellious state against Them.
Once we realize we're unprofitable but He loves us anyways it sets us free because it's then we realize there's nothing we can do to earn His love... He already showed us the greatest sign of Love and He showed us that when we were at our worst... so why try and earn it unless it's to boost your ego and make you feel like you're in some way earning His love and in that seeing yourself as deserving it more than someone else.
In other words, "I'm not going to hell but those homosexuals are" Aspen's right... pure ego...
You want to give God the glory He deserves for His love towards you... recognize that He loves you despite the wretched sinner that you are... that's His glory... and yeah.. no glory for you... it's all His!!!
Prentis
New Member
The NT is full of warnings that we must fear God. Jesus is not a free pass to heaven. He's an example. He shows the way. Yes, he has paid for our sins, in the sense that if we repent and turn to him, our old sins are gone. But we have been bought with a price, and for a purpose. We are supposed to be fruitull to God. Any tree that doesn't bear fruit is cut off.
If I may propose an answer, Comm.Arnold, to this dilemma
Modern Christianity has taken everything away from a man who is honestly loving and genuinely humble and yet does not know the Lord. I bet I'm going to get flack for this :lol: . But the good samaritan was not a Christian. To do good is to do good. God rewards all according to what they do, and if a humble man, who does not know Christ, loves his neighbor and has mercy on his enemies, then he knows Christ more than some who claim the name of Christ! Those who obey his commandments will have life.
Of course, as Christians, we have a higher calling, and we should call others to this. We are called to walk as Christ. To be holy as he is holy. May I suggest though, that everyone reaps what he sows, and a man who sows love and mercy will reap love and mercy, as the good samaritan, and the man who sows the new life in Christ and holiness will reap in the new life of Christ and holiness.
We have somehow decided that there is only eternal suffering, and eternal glory. May I suggest it's not that simple. Before you say 'it's not in scripture', let me show you an example that talks in this direction
1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
It also says that the house the house of God has many vessels, some to honor and some to shame. Judgment comes on the house of God first, some judged to honor, some to shame. Then are judged those outside, some to life and some to death.
Think about this; if the sheep, in the parable of the sheep and the goats, are Christians, how do they not know that they had given to Christ, and to 'the least of these'?
This ought to be enough to make this place a mess :lol:
If I may propose an answer, Comm.Arnold, to this dilemma
Modern Christianity has taken everything away from a man who is honestly loving and genuinely humble and yet does not know the Lord. I bet I'm going to get flack for this :lol: . But the good samaritan was not a Christian. To do good is to do good. God rewards all according to what they do, and if a humble man, who does not know Christ, loves his neighbor and has mercy on his enemies, then he knows Christ more than some who claim the name of Christ! Those who obey his commandments will have life.
Of course, as Christians, we have a higher calling, and we should call others to this. We are called to walk as Christ. To be holy as he is holy. May I suggest though, that everyone reaps what he sows, and a man who sows love and mercy will reap love and mercy, as the good samaritan, and the man who sows the new life in Christ and holiness will reap in the new life of Christ and holiness.
We have somehow decided that there is only eternal suffering, and eternal glory. May I suggest it's not that simple. Before you say 'it's not in scripture', let me show you an example that talks in this direction
1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
It also says that the house the house of God has many vessels, some to honor and some to shame. Judgment comes on the house of God first, some judged to honor, some to shame. Then are judged those outside, some to life and some to death.
Think about this; if the sheep, in the parable of the sheep and the goats, are Christians, how do they not know that they had given to Christ, and to 'the least of these'?
This ought to be enough to make this place a mess :lol:
Robbie
New Member
The only people I see in danger of hell are those who are deceived by:
1) A false security in self righteousness.
2) A lack of security in the Love of God.
Most the people I know that don't understand this are people who follow men.
Look at Jesus...
He says if you're going to fear someone fear God... but don't be afraid because you're valuable to God and He loves you...
So nah... not buying the religious BS of being afraid of God that's spread by people who can't see clearly just how unconditionally loving He is... and just what a sinner they are.
God I hate religion... it really does just hinder everyone from entering in on earth and all the know it all people that have all these brilliant ideas that are really just ways which seem right to mans pride... but pride is just the doorway to death...
So worthless...
God is good and you're not... accept it... it's only His love that will save you... your greatest works or righteousness are just filthy rags to Him...
Get over yourself... and you'll be saved...
1) A false security in self righteousness.
2) A lack of security in the Love of God.
Most the people I know that don't understand this are people who follow men.
Look at Jesus...
He says if you're going to fear someone fear God... but don't be afraid because you're valuable to God and He loves you...
So nah... not buying the religious BS of being afraid of God that's spread by people who can't see clearly just how unconditionally loving He is... and just what a sinner they are.
God I hate religion... it really does just hinder everyone from entering in on earth and all the know it all people that have all these brilliant ideas that are really just ways which seem right to mans pride... but pride is just the doorway to death...
So worthless...
God is good and you're not... accept it... it's only His love that will save you... your greatest works or righteousness are just filthy rags to Him...
Get over yourself... and you'll be saved...
Prentis
New Member
Our greatest works of righteousness are filthy rags, yes, compared to His. Otherwise, how does the Bible say that (1) Noah is righteous, and yet (2) none is righteous? There is the righteousness of men, and the righteousness of God. Man can do what is right, as the good samaritan. But his righteousness is not as God's. He may, on a carnal level, give his life for his brother, and that is good, but that other man will simply die another day. God on the other hand, gives of his very life that we may share it, and loves us when we hate him, and seeks to turn us around.
1Pe 2:17
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
2Co 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
There is also such a thing as perfecting holiness. Yes, we must walk on to maturity and become like Christ. Anything else is a gospel that either justifies sin, or makes the life of Christ in us powerless, saying that we cannot overcome.
We think we look back at the Pharisees and because they justified themselves according to the law, that's all that self-righteousness is. We don't understand the pattern. Self-righteousness is to justify oneself by saying 'I have done what God requires.' For the Pharisees it was "I have obeyed the law", for modern Christianity it is "I have believed, therefore I am justified". Both are a form of self-justification and self-righteousness.
God judges, and not us, thus we must walk in the fear of the Lord every day... We know that he is the judge, and if he has given us much, we are just then more accountable and more is expected of us, so we fear him and love him and seek him. Not with assurance, with hope. Hope and faith and love. The modern saying goes 'certainty and assurance and love', which is contrary to the Gospel, it walks by sight, not faith.
1Pe 2:17
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
2Co 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
There is also such a thing as perfecting holiness. Yes, we must walk on to maturity and become like Christ. Anything else is a gospel that either justifies sin, or makes the life of Christ in us powerless, saying that we cannot overcome.
We think we look back at the Pharisees and because they justified themselves according to the law, that's all that self-righteousness is. We don't understand the pattern. Self-righteousness is to justify oneself by saying 'I have done what God requires.' For the Pharisees it was "I have obeyed the law", for modern Christianity it is "I have believed, therefore I am justified". Both are a form of self-justification and self-righteousness.
God judges, and not us, thus we must walk in the fear of the Lord every day... We know that he is the judge, and if he has given us much, we are just then more accountable and more is expected of us, so we fear him and love him and seek him. Not with assurance, with hope. Hope and faith and love. The modern saying goes 'certainty and assurance and love', which is contrary to the Gospel, it walks by sight, not faith.
Robbie
New Member
Really Prentis? You're really gonna try and quote two sentences out of the bible to prove your point. That's really where you're at?
Satan quoted a couple lines out of scripture... who cares... what about the revelation of Jesus Christ?
The revelation of Jesus Christ is what casts out fear homey... hypocrites who pull a couple sentences out of the bible perpetuate fear.
You're losing it homey.. the seeds getting choked from you...
You want me to quote a bunch of scriptures that say different? Do I need to take that route with you?
What a waste dude.. you seem like you're getting way more religious than when you first came on here.
Satan quoted a couple lines out of scripture... who cares... what about the revelation of Jesus Christ?
The revelation of Jesus Christ is what casts out fear homey... hypocrites who pull a couple sentences out of the bible perpetuate fear.
You're losing it homey.. the seeds getting choked from you...
You want me to quote a bunch of scriptures that say different? Do I need to take that route with you?
What a waste dude.. you seem like you're getting way more religious than when you first came on here.
Prentis
New Member
The revelation of Christ is that God can dwell in man! And if a man is full of God, can there be any sin? I'm not claiming this for myself, I'm saying God has made a way. If we cannot overcome, we're gonna have to throw out a whole lot of scriptures to justify that. :mellow:
Brother, I haven't changed. We fought together on one subject, and were looking at different things. On this, my stand was already the same.
Brother, I haven't changed.
We fought together on one subject, and were looking at different things. On this, my stand was already the same.
Robbie
New Member
The revelation of Jesus Christ is the revelation of who the Father is... if you've seen Him you've seen the Father...
Would you ever be afraid of Jesus?
I'd be afraid of the self righteous religious leaders who wanted to condemn me for my sins when they themselves weren't without...
But as far as Jesus... I'd only ever run to Him... no matter how effed up I was in the moment...
And that's because of the revelation of the perfect Love He is that casts out fear...
That fear being destroyed by the revelation of God's love is what makes me run to Him... instead of running from Him...
So no man... you're wrong...
Would you ever be afraid of Jesus?
I'd be afraid of the self righteous religious leaders who wanted to condemn me for my sins when they themselves weren't without...
But as far as Jesus... I'd only ever run to Him... no matter how effed up I was in the moment...
And that's because of the revelation of the perfect Love He is that casts out fear...
That fear being destroyed by the revelation of God's love is what makes me run to Him... instead of running from Him...
So no man... you're wrong...
Jesus is right.
Luke 12:5 (NKJV)
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Luke 12:5 (NKJV)
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Prentis
New Member
I agree that we are to run to him, but that doesn't take away the fear of his judgment. Somehow we think that fear is opposite to love.
We love the Father, but we know also that he is just, and if we transgress against him, we come with trembling asking for forgiveness.
Becoming a Christian does not make you responsible for less, as in 'Im not responsible for my sins'. Jesus says the opposite! To whom much is given, much is required. If we have a revelation of Christ, we are accountable for much more; for his commandments and for faith.
God is not a respecter of persons, and he did not come to save those he 'likes more', he came to give new life, that we might be like him.
We love the Father, but we know also that he is just, and if we transgress against him, we come with trembling asking for forgiveness.
Becoming a Christian does not make you responsible for less, as in 'Im not responsible for my sins'. Jesus says the opposite! To whom much is given, much is required. If we have a revelation of Christ, we are accountable for much more; for his commandments and for faith.
God is not a respecter of persons, and he did not come to save those he 'likes more', he came to give new life, that we might be like him.
Robbie
New Member
I knew someone who didn't look to the fullness of the revelation of Christ and pulled sentences out of context in the bible and doesn't even understand what Jesus is talking about would come in with that quote and leave it to Duckybill... of course... haha
He actually says,
"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows."
If you look at the context of what He's talking about He's saying, "If you're going to be afraid of someone don't be afraid of people... be afraid of God... but don't be afraid of God because you are valuable to Him"
But ignorant hypocrites who perpetuate fear of God because it boasts their own pride and ego catered to by their own self righteousness can't even hear what Jesus is saying... they're just like, "Jesus said to fear God" haha... fricken blind leaders of the blind... so worthless...
I tell you what... when I walk into the wedding feast I'll be throwing all my dirty rags in the trash... because I wouldn't get caught in that feast dressed in anything other than the robe of righteousness He clothed me in... and that has nothing to do with me... He's the Lord my righteousness... He's my righteousness... that's all...
He actually says,
"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows."
If you look at the context of what He's talking about He's saying, "If you're going to be afraid of someone don't be afraid of people... be afraid of God... but don't be afraid of God because you are valuable to Him"
But ignorant hypocrites who perpetuate fear of God because it boasts their own pride and ego catered to by their own self righteousness can't even hear what Jesus is saying... they're just like, "Jesus said to fear God" haha... fricken blind leaders of the blind... so worthless...
I tell you what... when I walk into the wedding feast I'll be throwing all my dirty rags in the trash... because I wouldn't get caught in that feast dressed in anything other than the robe of righteousness He clothed me in... and that has nothing to do with me... He's the Lord my righteousness... He's my righteousness... that's all...
i agree that it is a demonic teaching
It has caused many to leave christianity because they cannot comprehend how a God of love could threaten non believers with such a vile cruel sadistic fate.
If a person did the same thing to their pet dog, that person would be jailed....but here we have Christians promoting the idea that God will do that very same vile act to billions of his children. Its disgusting and offensive and, to me, it shows that those who believe and teach it have not come to know Gods love.
Listen to how God defends himself against such a despicable, inhumane act as burning someone alive:
Jeremiah 32:34 And they went putting their disgusting things in the house upon which my own name has been called, in order to defile it. 35 Furthermore, they built the high places of Ba′al that are in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through [the fire] to Mo′lech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing, for the purpose of making Judah sin
How can anyone honestly believe that God would do this very thing to anyone day in day out for all eternity? The idea of it does not even come into his mind to do... so how could it be a real punishement that he dishes out to wrongdoers?
The only one who likes this sort of thing is satan the devil. he loves to see humans suffer and he is the originator of such ideas...thats why human sacrifice was linked to false worship in ancient times. Satan loves death and pain and suffering. God doesnt.
Robbie
New Member
If you still fear His judgment you must not believe in what Christ did for you on the cross or else is it that you think you're going to add some of your own works to that?
Calm down Robbie what are you so upset about ? There should be many more things than Jesus that cast out fear in your life. The creation of time itself the creation of heaven, when was the last time you read the old testament ? The countless stories where he rose up a man out of a hopeless situation called him to battle and delivered the army out of impossible odds is nothing short of awesome.
Prentis
New Member
I guess Paul didn't believe either
"Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel". We don't add works, but we understand that we were called for good works.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
We know also that God warns us that the one who doesn't bear fruit will be cut off. We know God has now equipped us for those good works, and not to do them is to disobey.
"Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel". We don't add works, but we understand that we were called for good works.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
We know also that God warns us that the one who doesn't bear fruit will be cut off. We know God has now equipped us for those good works, and not to do them is to disobey.
Do you ever quote a verse?
Be afraid of God but don't be afraid of God???
There's no need for name calling.
Hope to see you there.
Robbie
New Member
No Ducky... this:
"If you're going to be afraid of someone don't be afraid of people... be afraid of God... but don't be afraid of God because you are valuable to Him. He sent His Son to die for you a sinner... isn't that enough to prove that He loves you unconditionaly"
and this
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
Is God not perfect Love? and if He is perfect Love why are you still afraid?
"If you're going to be afraid of someone don't be afraid of people... be afraid of God... but don't be afraid of God because you are valuable to Him. He sent His Son to die for you a sinner... isn't that enough to prove that He loves you unconditionaly"
and this
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
Is God not perfect Love? and if He is perfect Love why are you still afraid?
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