Eternal Security

[Stranger]

Too bad Paul, John and James are no longer around so you could teach them what you are trying to teach me. Paul said faith establishes the law (Romans 3:31). John said sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). James said if we kill as per the 6th of the Ten, then we transgress the law (James 2:11). But they don't matter because Stranger says the law no longer applies to Christians. Yeah, right.


What # posts did I ignore? I thought I answered them all.

Paul is saying we establish the law, not by keeping the law, but by our faith.

Because one is a Christian does not change the law. It is always a sin to murder. But as a Christian our relationship with God is not based on our ability to keep the law.

You are going to fail at trying to keep the law as a Christian just as those failed who were under law. So what good is it?

As to the other posts, I can't remember now.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

When you obey nine of the Ten Commandments, then you have succeeded in walking in the Spirit. When you break the 4th, you have failed to walk in the Spirit.


Yes, sin is more than disobeying the Law. However, disobeying the Law is still sin. It is a lack of faith to disobey YHWH's commandment.


Christianity today is not the same Christianity as in the first century. It is riddled with false teachings which is why we have so many denominations. To be a Christian today means you must be a trinitarian who does not keep the Sabbath or Feast Days holy and who is free to eat swine's flesh, mice, maggots, etc., if that is their preference. If I call myself a Christian, then I am associating myself with those false teachings. No, I am not a Christian, but I am a follower of Christ/Messiah.

No. You don't understand. Even if you keep all the Ten Commandments, which you can't, you are not walking in the Spirit. You are walking by Law. If you kept the Law perfectly, you are walking by Law.

It is a lack of faith and unbelief to attempt to walk by Law. That is the sin of the Hebrews in the Book of Hebrews. All those warnings apply directly to you and your attempt to go back under law.

Christianity has had problems from the beginning. So?

You do not understand. If you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour, born again, you are part of the Church. You are a Christian. You have no say in the matter. Just because you do not want to identify with Christianity and go back to the Law, doesn't change what Christ has made you.

Are you a follower of the Christ of the Bible. Or one of your own making. It appears to me you are a follower of the Law. To reject the Deity of Jesus Christ is to deny Who Christ is.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Once I come to Christ/Messiah I am part of the Body of Messiah. I need not be a Christian. Identifying with Christianity is NOT the same as identifying with Christ. Christ represents truth and Christianity does not. If they did, there would not be the plethora of denominations as we see today, each teaching differing doctrines. That is not how the early church was.

And that Body is called the Church. Which makes you Christian.

Wrong. The Church at the beginning continually fought against other doctrines. There was always problems in the Church. That is the way it is.

You complain of other denominations but have made one of your own. What do you need the Messiah for anyway?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

No, it is not a problem, but a blessing to not have to believe a man made doctrine not found in Scripture. The Scriptures have become so clear to me now that I don't look at them through a trinitarian filter.

Who is this Messiah you follow?

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

You know nothing about the gospel of Jesus Christ do you? Only Moses and the law.

Since you cannot refute my view of the Sabbath and other laws you resort to personal attacks and bring my spirituality into question. I'm usually told I don't have the Holy Spirit. Hopefully that will not be your next personal attack.

Well let me explain simply:

Walking in the Spirit does NOT lead a Christian into bestiality.

I agree. The Spirit leads a believer to NOT commit bestiality or any other sin.

We are born again with a new nature, and it is not in our nature to sin. Do you honestly need laws to be spelled out for you to be righteous? Do you crave animals and need a law to tell you it is disgusting?

Many people have never been baptized in the Spirit and need laws because they love darkness. Christians don't.

Read 1 John chapter 3. Christians don't sin. So if you don't commit willful sin, you don't need a law to show you sin you wouldn't want to commit.

First, let's define sin as John does in 1 John 3 (the chapter you want me to read);

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. KJV​

So when a person sins, it is because they broke a law of YHWH.

Now let's look at verse 9 which is probably where you get the false idea that Christian's don't sin.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. KJV
​

John said basically the same thing in 1 John 5:18a;

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
​

Now let's read what John wrote right before that.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.​

If a believers sins (by breaking a law - 1 John 3:4), then we can help that brother who sinned by praying for him. So what does 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18a really mean? Based on 1 John 5:16, it can't mean Christian's don't sin. Here is how the ESV reads;

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning,​

EVERY Christian sins, including you. Those who walk in the Spirit sin less than those who are not strong in the Spirit, but who allow the flesh to have its way. Why do you think Paul wrote passages like Colossians 3:5-10? He knew full well that the Colossian believers still sin and he was admonishing them not to.

Do Messianics just add Jesus to the Old Covenant and the Mosaic law for a ticket into heaven, but don't care about learning anything about the New Covenant? You appear to be very naive on the subject, especially WHY we are no longer under the law.

No, they don't. That is just how Christians view us in order to justify their sinful lifestyle of breaking YHWH's laws given through Moses. We are no longer "under the law" (under its condemnation) because Yeshua took our condemnation (the death penalty) upon himself. He paid the price of sin (breaking the law) so that we no longer have that condemnation upon ourselves. Not being "under the law" does NOT mean we no longer have to obey the law. That is a lie from Satan.

Listen to what Paul says about that. Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

I agree with Paul. To seek to be justified by law instead of by faith is to fall from grace. Messianics do not believe they are justified by law. That, again, is the Christian view of us in order to justify their own lawlessness.

 

[gadar perets]

Paul is saying we establish the law, not by keeping the law, but by our faith.

The Greek for "establish" means "to make it stand". The law stands firm through faith.

Because one is a Christian does not change the law. It is always a sin to murder. But as a Christian our relationship with God is not based on our ability to keep the law.

I agree. However, our relationship can suffer because we break His laws. When we break His laws, we grieve the Holy Spirit.

You are going to fail at trying to keep the law as a Christian just as those failed who were under law. So what good is it?

Yes, I will fail, but that is why I have Yeshua. I pray for forgiveness when I sin/fail and receive it through his shed blood. However, because my mind is oriented towards obeying YHWH's laws, as was Messiah's mind, I sin far less. Those who were "under the law" prior to Yeshua's birth did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to cause them to obey YHWH's commandments. They were living totally in the flesh and powerless to obey. We have the power to obey through the Spirit, but we CANNOT OBEY when we are taught we no longer need to obey. We need to know exactly what YHWH command us to do and do it. We should not be seeking ways to get around obeying His laws.

 

[gadar perets]

No. You don't understand. Even if you keep all the Ten Commandments, which you can't, you are not walking in the Spirit. You are walking by Law. If you kept the Law perfectly, you are walking by Law.

So you say because you do not understand the function of the Spirit as stated in Ezekiel 36:26-27. Please explain that passage to me.

You do not understand. If you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour, born again, you are part of the Church. You are a Christian. You have no say in the matter. Just because you do not want to identify with Christianity and go back to the Law, doesn't change what Christ has made you.

Yes, I am part of the "church" (the body of called out believers in Messiah Yeshua). No, I am not going "back under the law". I simply obey more laws than you do because I do not want to sin against my Creator or my fellow man.

Are you a follower of the Christ of the Bible. Or one of your own making. It appears to me you are a follower of the Law.

The Christ of the Bible obeyed all of his Father's laws and, as a result, was sinless. I endeavor to follow his example.

To reject the Deity of Jesus Christ is to deny Who Christ is.

No. To reject the Deity of Jesus Christ is to deny who Christians say Christ is. Yeshua said there is "only one true God/Deity" (John 17:3). He identified that Deity as his Father, Almighty YHWH). Christians disregard Yeshua's words and make him into part of that Deity.

 

[gadar perets]

You complain of other denominations but have made one of your own. What do you need the Messiah for anyway?

As I said, I was forced out of the modern Christian "church". If I came to your church as a non-trinitarian Sabbath keeper who only eats clean foods and keeps all the Feast Days, would I be welcome as a member?

 

[gadar perets]

Who is this Messiah you follow?

Stranger

Yeshua of Nazareth, the Son of YHWH.

 

[Episkopos]

Did you even check to see if there is a Bema judgment mentioned in the bible? Or are you saying this just to differ?

For we must all appear before the judgment seat (Bema) of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad (2 Corinthians 5:10).


Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat (Bema) of God (Romans 14:10).

 

[Stranger]

The Greek for "establish" means "to make it stand". The law stands firm through faith.


I agree. However, our relationship can suffer because we break His laws. When we break His laws, we grieve the Holy Spirit.


Yes, I will fail, but that is why I have Yeshua. I pray for forgiveness when I sin/fail and receive it through his shed blood. However, because my mind is oriented towards obeying YHWH's laws, as was Messiah's mind, I sin far less. Those who were "under the law" prior to Yeshua's birth did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to cause them to obey YHWH's commandments. They were living totally in the flesh and powerless to obey. We have the power to obey through the Spirit, but we CANNOT OBEY when we are taught we no longer need to obey. We need to know exactly what YHWH command us to do and do it. We should not be seeking ways to get around obeying His laws.

Again, we do not establish the Law by keeping the Law. Our obedience to it does not establish it, much less our disobedience. Our faith does. Which places us in a place where we are no longer under Law. You cannot offer obedience to the Law, because you break it. All you can offer is disobedience.

If you have Jesus and obtain forgiveness for breaking the law, what good is the law? Because you mind is bent toward following the Law, you cannot please God. As I said, even if you obeyed the Law completely, you are not pleasing to God.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

So you say because you do not understand the function of the Spirit as stated in Ezekiel 36:26-27. Please explain that passage to me.


Yes, I am part of the "church" (the body of called out believers in Messiah Yeshua). No, I am not going "back under the law". I simply obey more laws than you do because I do not want to sin against my Creator or my fellow man.


The Christ of the Bible obeyed all of his Father's laws and, as a result, was sinless. I endeavor to follow his example.


No. To reject the Deity of Jesus Christ is to deny who Christians say Christ is. Yeshua said there is "only one true God/Deity" (John 17:3). He identified that Deity as his Father, Almighty YHWH). Christians disregard Yeshua's words and make him into part of that Deity.

(Eze. 36:26-27) speaks to the future day when God cause the nation of Israel to be born-again and once again become His people on earth. And they will be brought again under Law and serve God as they have never done before. This is not the Church. And it isn't you. These are true Jews who will return to God.

Your obeying more laws doesn't amount to a hill of beans. If you break the law once, the law is broken. And as you have admitted, you break it all the time.

Christ was sinless due to Who He was as the Son prior to the Virgin birth, and then He remained sinless due to the Virgin birth. And then spent a lifetime in obedience to the Father. I guess you don't believe in the Virgin birth either. How did Jesus become the Son of God?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

As I said, I was forced out of the modern Christian "church". If I came to your church as a non-trinitarian Sabbath keeper who only eats clean foods and keeps all the Feast Days, would I be welcome as a member?

No you wouldn't. You have some serious doctrinal issues.

Yeshua of Nazareth, the Son of YHWH.

How did Jesus become the Son of God?

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Again, we do not establish the Law by keeping the Law. Our obedience to it does not establish it, much less our disobedience. Our faith does. Which places us in a place where we are no longer under Law. You cannot offer obedience to the Law, because you break it. All you can offer is disobedience.

If you have Jesus and obtain forgiveness for breaking the law, what good is the law? Because you mind is bent toward following the Law, you cannot please God. As I said, even if you obeyed the Law completely, you are not pleasing to God.

Stranger

Well, I guess we will see where that gets you come judgment day. I would much rather be found obeying YHWH's laws than disobeying His laws.

 

[Stranger]

Well, I guess we will see where that gets you come judgment day. I would much rather be found obeying YHWH's laws than disobeying His laws.

So, where does that go on judgment day? If you and I die today, what will be the outcome as we stand before God? What do you say?

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

(Eze. 36:26-27) speaks to the future day when God cause the nation of Israel to be born-again and once again become His people on earth. And they will be brought again under Law and serve God as they have never done before. This is not the Church. And it isn't you. These are true Jews who will return to God.

Are you telling me that in the future the returning Jews will be brought under the Law, but Christians will not? That part of YHWH's people will need to keep the Sabbath holy and eat clean, but the other part can pollute the Sabbath and eat what YHWH calls "abominations"?

Your obeying more laws doesn't amount to a hill of beans. If you break the law once, the law is broken. And as you have admitted, you break it all the time.

The fact that we break the law does not negate the necessity to continue obeying the law. When we sin by breaking the law, we are to "repent" (turn in the opposite direction and obey the law we broke).

Christ was sinless due to Who He was as the Son prior to the Virgin birth, and then He remained sinless due to the Virgin birth. And then spent a lifetime in obedience to the Father. I guess you don't believe in the Virgin birth either. How did Jesus become the Son of God?

I believe in the virgin birth. He became the Son via his conception in Miriam's womb which was miraculously brought about by his Father YHWH. The word "Son" denotes a beginning from the Father and the word "Father" denotes the source from which the "Son" came into existence.

 

[gadar perets]

No you wouldn't. You have some serious doctrinal issues.

I rest my case. I cannot be a Christian if Christians will not accept me as one.

 

[gadar perets]

So, where does that go on judgment day? If you and I die today, what will be the outcome as we stand before God? What do you say?

Stranger

We will both enter the Kingdom because of Messiah's finished work and we will be rewarded based on our works.

 

[Stranger]

Are you telling me that in the future the returning Jews will be brought under the Law, but Christians will not? That part of YHWH's people will need to keep the Sabbath holy and eat clean, but the other part can pollute the Sabbath and eat what YHWH calls "abominations"?


The fact that we break the law does not negate the necessity to continue obeying the law. When we sin by breaking the law, we are to "repent" (turn in the opposite direction and obey the law we broke).


I believe in the virgin birth. He became the Son via his conception in Miriam's womb which was miraculously brought about by his Father YHWH. The word "Son" denotes a beginning from the Father and the word "Father" denotes the source from which the "Son" came into existence.

No, the Scripture is telling you that. Israel will be brought once again under the Law. The Church is a separate Body of believers. Nothing is unclean for her to eat. And she will not keep any certain days.

But you do not obey the Law. It always says to you...guilty.

Yet Scripture says He became the Son of the Father at the resurrection, not the incarnation. (Acts 13:33) Yet He was the Son before that. (John 3:16) How? Because He always existed as the Son with the Father.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I rest my case. I cannot be a Christian if Christians will not accept me as one.

If you are not a Christian, it is not because Christians don't accept you. It is because you were never born-again.

We will both enter the Kingdom because of Messiah's finished work and we will be rewarded based on our works.

Well, Christians have the same doctrine towards works and rewards. And we believe that we only are accepted by God because of our faith in Jesus Christ.

Your problems are 'Who Jesus is' and 'wanting to follow the Law'. If one does not believe in the real Jesus, has he been saved? islam believes in Jesus, but not the Jesus of the Bible. Are they saved?

Stranger