Church sans Tribulation

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Netchaplain

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For those in Christ, there hasn’t been and will never be a general tribulation such as will involve the world (majority of society). This sense is in reference to the eschatological tribulation which contains “things which must shortly come to pass” (Rev 1:1). These “things” are not difficulties which believers endure that derive from the oppositions of men, but from the judgment from God, which answers to why children of God (e.g. those in Christ, which excludes any in the OT) are never seen in Scripture to encounter judgment of any kind—they being ever absent of it in the Lord Jesus (Rom 8:1).
NC




Church sans Tribulation

Not only is the Church a product of this specific age with no relation whatsoever to any other age (after the OT and prior to Rev 20:4), but each believer is perfectly accepted now and forever before God on the ground of his position in Christ, and, being saved out of this cosmos world, he is no more of this world than Christ is of this world (John 15:18, 19; 17:14, 16).

The coming tribulation is the judgment of this world. Israel has her part in it since, being not yet saved (Ro 11:26), she is of the world (cf. Mat 13:44). The believer, being what he is in Christ, has no more a rightful place in this world’s judgments than Christ Himself or even any unfallen angel. Back of the theories that the Church will enter or pass through the tribulation is the Arminian heresy that the believer contributes something to his own acceptance before God, and, having failed to some extent in this responsibility, he will be purged and purified by the suffering which the tribulation affords.

There is a line of truth which concerns the believer’s personal faithfulness; but this is consummated before Christ at His judgment seat in heaven. As for any condemnation, or other judgment, the Christian is wholly delivered forever on the most righteous ground that a Substitute bore the condemnation and judgment and has provided a perfect standing before God. It is established by Scripture that the believer is delivered from all condemning judgments (John 3:18; 5:24; Rom 5:1; 8:1, 33, 34; 1 Cor 11:31, 32).

In general, those who contend that the Church will experience the tribulation assert that all believers—spiritual and unspiritual, will enter that period of suffering, though there are those believing in a partial rapture who assert that the Church will be divided and the spiritual element, which always includes those who advance this notion, will go directly to heaven, while the unspiritual will suffer for their sins in the tribulation.

This constitutes a Protestant purgatory. The answer to all such conceptions is the recognition of the truth that, when members of this sinful race go to heaven, it is not on the ground of their own merit, but only through the merit of Christ. It is to be remembered that each believer is already perfectly justified forever (Rom 5:1; 8:30, 33, 34; Heb 10:14), and this wholly within the range of divine justice (Rom 3:26). Thus the contention that the Church will enter or pass through the tribulation becomes and insult to, and unbelief towards (though ignorantly—NC) the measureless grace of God in His Beloved Son.

Those who entertain the idea that the Church experiences the great tribulation must reckon with the fact that of upwards of seventy-five generations (almost 2000 years) who comprise that company, all but the present generation have entered Glory without the supposed benefits of that purging experience. Why, then, should the last generation suffer that from which the vast host have been spared?

On this point a specious argument has been advanced, namely, that as the Church has suffered martyrdom in certain periods of her history she may be expected to suffer thus again at the end of her age; but back of this claim is the failure to recognize that past sufferings were due to the attack of wicked men upon the Church, while the great tribulation is God’s judgment upon wicked men. Wholly justified believers have no place among evil men who are destined to eternal doom.

- L S Chafer



Excerpt from MJS devotional for September 7:

“We are to draw nigh in faith where we already are in position.” - MJS

"Instead of the priest coming out to bless, as in Judaism, we are to go in for blessing. There are no barriers now. The Father has removed every hindrance and now it is for me to go in and abide. The teachers of Christendom have practically stitched up the veil which He rent. The rent veil in the Gospels is the Father’s coming out, but the rent veil in Hebrews is the believer’s going in." -J.B.S.
None But The Hungry Heart
 

1stCenturyLady

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The children of Israel were IN Egypt during Egypt's "tribulation." But they were kept from the plagues. Otherwise, the children of Israel would have been released, and THEN the plagues would have hit Egypt, if the secret rapture of the church wasn't bogus. No, like the c of I, the church will be on earth during the Great Tribulation, but will be kept from the plagues, themselves, and different types of Christians (types of the seven letters to the churches in Rev. 2 and 3) will have to stand up and be martyred. (All but the Philadelphian type Christian who will be spared and remain alive to the end)
 

Enoch111

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The children of Israel were IN Egypt during Egypt's "tribulation." But they were kept from the plagues.
The Church is NOT the children of Israel in Egypt. The destination of the Israelites was on earth (after 40 years of wandering). The destination of the Church is in Heaven. BIG DIFFERENCE.

JOHN 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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The Church is NOT the children of Israel in Egypt. The destination of the Israelites was on earth (after 40 years of wandering). The destination of the Church is in Heaven. BIG DIFFERENCE.

JOHN 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The destiny of the Church is in heaven AFTER the Jews enter in and Jesus returns. There is no scriptural basis for a secret rapture that does not include dead saints. And dead saints only return WITH Jesus at the second coming.
 
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Enoch111

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The destiny of the Church is in heaven AFTER the Jews enter in and Jesus returns. There is no scriptural basis for a secret rapture that does not include dead saints. And dead saints only return WITH Jesus at the second coming.
I believe you are confused about the sequence of events as well as the Resurrection/Rapture. It takes place long before the Millennial Kingdom of Christ and the redemption and restoration of Israel (the Jews).

The Resurrection/Rapture applies to both the dead saints (who are resurrected and given glorious immortal bodies) and the living saints (who are transformed and also given glorious immortal bodies). All of these saints rise to meet the Lord in the air at this time (1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 John 3:1-3, and many other passages).

And the scriptural basis for a "secret" Rapture (if you will) is because it is not disclosed to the unbelieving world. It is strictly for the children of God, the saints of God. If you tell unbelievers about the Resurrection/ Rapture they will simply scoff at you. However, genuine Christians believe the words of Christ (as I already quoted from John 14) and His apostles.

The Tribulation and Great Tribulation are GOD'S JUDGMENTS on the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the enemies of Christ. So why would God subject His children to wrath, when they have been saved by grace through faith, and Christ took that wrath upon Himself at the Cross?
 

1stCenturyLady

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And the scriptural basis for a "secret" Rapture (if you will) is because it is not disclosed to the unbelieving world. It is strictly for the children of God, the saints of God. If you tell unbelievers about the Resurrection/ Rapture they will simply scoff at you. However, genuine Christians believe the words of Christ (as I already quoted from John 14) and His apostles.

Do you believe Daniel 9:27 that there is still a week/7 years where the blindness of national Israel will be lifted, and they will be saved? To me that is for them to come into the Church - the Bride of Christ. The Church is not just for Gentiles. If you don't believe this about Israel, do you believe they will not ever be given the chance to come to Christ, or is that now? In other words, what do you believe about national Israel.
 
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Netchaplain

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The children of Israel were IN Egypt during Egypt's "tribulation."
Hi and thanks for your reply! It's my understanding that through the difficulties that God brought on Israel, He disciplined those among them who believed in Him, and destroyed those among them who were in unbelief. I do not think this relates to what the article means by "tribulation."

Blessings!
 
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marksman

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The children of Israel were IN Egypt during Egypt's "tribulation." But they were kept from the plagues. Otherwise, the children of Israel would have been released, and THEN the plagues would have hit Egypt, if the secret rapture of the church wasn't bogus. No, like the c of I, the church will be on earth during the Great Tribulation, but will be kept from the plagues, themselves, and different types of Christians (types of the seven letters to the churches in Rev. 2 and 3) will have to stand up and be martyred. (All but the Philadelphian type Christian who will be spared and remain alive to the end)

I have read just about every book that Tim Lahaye has written about the end times and he has convinced me with all the evidence presented that the true believer will not go through the tribulation.
 
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marksman

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For those in Christ, there hasn’t been and will never be a general tribulation such as will involve the world (majority of society). This sense is in reference to the eschatological tribulation which contains “things which must shortly come to pass” (Rev 1:1). These “things” are not difficulties which believers endure that derive from the oppositions of men, but from the judgment from God, which answers to why children of God (e.g. those in Christ, which excludes any in the OT) are never seen in Scripture to encounter judgment of any kind—they being ever absent of it in the Lord Jesus (Rom 8:1).
NC




Church sans Tribulation

Not only is the Church a product of this specific age with no relation whatsoever to any other age (after the OT and prior to Rev 20:4), but each believer is perfectly accepted now and forever before God on the ground of his position in Christ, and, being saved out of this cosmos world, he is no more of this world than Christ is of this world (John 15:18, 19; 17:14, 16).

The coming tribulation is the judgment of this world. Israel has her part in it since, being not yet saved (Ro 11:26), she is of the world (cf. Mat 13:44). The believer, being what he is in Christ, has no more a rightful place in this world’s judgments than Christ Himself or even any unfallen angel. Back of the theories that the Church will enter or pass through the tribulation is the Arminian heresy that the believer contributes something to his own acceptance before God, and, having failed to some extent in this responsibility, he will be purged and purified by the suffering which the tribulation affords.

There is a line of truth which concerns the believer’s personal faithfulness; but this is consummated before Christ at His judgment seat in heaven. As for any condemnation, or other judgment, the Christian is wholly delivered forever on the most righteous ground that a Substitute bore the condemnation and judgment and has provided a perfect standing before God. It is established by Scripture that the believer is delivered from all condemning judgments (John 3:18; 5:24; Rom 5:1; 8:1, 33, 34; 1 Cor 11:31, 32).

In general, those who contend that the Church will experience the tribulation assert that all believers—spiritual and unspiritual, will enter that period of suffering, though there are those believing in a partial rapture who assert that the Church will be divided and the spiritual element, which always includes those who advance this notion, will go directly to heaven, while the unspiritual will suffer for their sins in the tribulation.

This constitutes a Protestant purgatory. The answer to all such conceptions is the recognition of the truth that, when members of this sinful race go to heaven, it is not on the ground of their own merit, but only through the merit of Christ. It is to be remembered that each believer is already perfectly justified forever (Rom 5:1; 8:30, 33, 34; Heb 10:14), and this wholly within the range of divine justice (Rom 3:26). Thus the contention that the Church will enter or pass through the tribulation becomes and insult to, and unbelief towards (though ignorantly—NC) the measureless grace of God in His Beloved Son.

Those who entertain the idea that the Church experiences the great tribulation must reckon with the fact that of upwards of seventy-five generations (almost 2000 years) who comprise that company, all but the present generation have entered Glory without the supposed benefits of that purging experience. Why, then, should the last generation suffer that from which the vast host have been spared?

On this point a specious argument has been advanced, namely, that as the Church has suffered martyrdom in certain periods of her history she may be expected to suffer thus again at the end of her age; but back of this claim is the failure to recognize that past sufferings were due to the attack of wicked men upon the Church, while the great tribulation is God’s judgment upon wicked men. Wholly justified believers have no place among evil men who are destined to eternal doom.

- L S Chafer



Excerpt from MJS devotional for September 7:

“We are to draw nigh in faith where we already are in position.” - MJS

"Instead of the priest coming out to bless, as in Judaism, we are to go in for blessing. There are no barriers now. The Father has removed every hindrance and now it is for me to go in and abide. The teachers of Christendom have practically stitched up the veil which He rent. The rent veil in the Gospels is the Father’s coming out, but the rent veil in Hebrews is the believer’s going in." -J.B.S.
None But The Hungry Heart

Nice bit of cut and paste and a good article but what is this ordained chaplain all about. We are all ordained to go forth and bear fruit ( John 1:6) so saying you are an ordained chaplain is a bit fanciful. You are only an ordained chaplain if God has ordained you. If he hasn't, it means nothing at all.
 

Enoch111

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In other words, what do you believe about national Israel.
It is only AFTER the second coming of Christ (with His saints and angels) that there will be a redemption and restoration of Israel, and th re-establishment of the kingdom of Israel under Christ.

But we must not confuse Israel with the Church, since redeemed Israel (actually greater Israel geographically) will be on earth whereas the eternal home of the Church is the heavenly city New Jerusalem. Replacement Theology is false.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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I have read just about every book that Tim Lahaye has written about the end times and he has convinced me with all the evidence presented that the true believer will not go through the tribulation.

And I believe that Tim Lahaye will have to answer for a lot of Christians keeping on sinning because they believe they'll have a second chance. There are dangerous doctrines, and then there are DANGEROUS DOCTRINES!
 

1stCenturyLady

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It is only AFTER the second coming of Christ (with His saints and angels) that there will be a redemption and restoration of Israel, and th re-establishment of the kingdom of Israel under Christ.

But we must not confuse Israel with the Church, since redeemed Israel (actually greater Israel geographically) will be on earth whereas the eternal home of the Church is the heavenly city New Jerusalem. Replacement Theology is false.

Correct - replacement theology is false. What do you believe Daniel 9:27 is referring to?
 
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Helen

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Nice bit of cut and paste and a good article but what is this ordained chaplain all about. We are all ordained to go forth and bear fruit ( John 1:6) so saying you are an ordained chaplain is a bit fanciful. You are only an ordained chaplain if God has ordained you. If he hasn't, it means nothing at all.

That is an inappropriate post and very rude. I hope he ignore you .
That is between him and God...and not your business.
As Jesus said to John when he poked his nose into Peters business.
" What will this man do?"
And Jesus responded with.. " What's that got to do with you, Follow thou Me."

You have made yourself look very ignorant and childish with you personal post toward him.
Shame on you.
 

Netchaplain

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Nice bit of cut and paste and a good article but what is this ordained chaplain all about. We are all ordained to go forth and bear fruit ( John 1:6) so saying you are an ordained chaplain is a bit fanciful. You are only an ordained chaplain if God has ordained you. If he hasn't, it means nothing at all.
I agree, only God can ordain, regardless of ones theological scholastic performance. You can also rest assured that I have not taken offence because I and others have encountered suspicious inquiries of this type, and the mention on my page of being ordained is purely for informative reasons.

Concerning the cut and paste issue, I type up the materials from books that contain mostly out of print information (circa 1600's -1800's), which is my greatest enjoyment because I get to see others grow from them too!

God bless!
 

Netchaplain

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1stCenturyLady

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I agree, only God can ordain, regardless of ones theological scholastic performance. You can also rest assured that I have not taken offence because I and others have encountered suspicious inquiries of this type, and the mention on my page of being ordained is purely for informative reasons.

Concerning the cut and paste issue, I type up the materials from books that contain mostly out of print information (circa 1600's -1800's), which is my greatest enjoyment because I get to see others grow from them too!

God bless!

Very gracious of you.
 
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Enoch111

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Correct - replacement theology is false. What do you believe Daniel 9:27 is referring to?
We need to take the entire passage (Dan 9:24-27) as one unit, but also tie it in with the other related prophecies in Daniel:

THE SEVENTY "WEEKS" OF DANIEL
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1. We need to take the entire chapter as the context. Daniel was living in exile in Babylon but was fully aware that the Babylonian captivity of his people (the Jews) would be for only 70 years. Yet he prayed for the temple, Jerusalem, Judah, and Israel: that God would be merciful to them and bring their captivity to an end.

2. Because Daniel was very pleasing to God, he was then given a revelation of the future of Israel from the end of the Babylonian captivity to the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth ("to bring in everlasting righteousness"), wherein Israel would be the primary nation through which God would deal with all the saved nations on earth.

3. verse 24:
"Seventy weeks" is actually "seventy sevens" (heptads) in Hebrew, and indicates a period of 490 years (70 x 7) before everlasting righteousness is established on earth. [Note: the Church Age is not presented here, thus provides a gap between the 483rd year and the last week of Daniel.]

4. verse 25:

seven weeks = 7 x 7 = 49 years
threescore weeks = 7 x 20 x 3 (60) = 420 years
two weeks = 7 x 2 = 14
49 + 420 + 14 = 483

456 BC + 27 AD = 483


456 BC "The commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" given by Cyrus, king of Persia, in his first year. (Note: Ptolemy's chronology was incorrect by 80 years and his date was 536 BC for the first year of Cyrus. See Martin Anstey's The Chronology of the Old Testament)

27 AD -- "unto Messiah the Prince" -- the beginning of the public ministry of Christ.

30 AD --
"Messiah shall be cut off" -- the crucifixion of Christ

5. Verse 26 -- "the prince that shall come" = the Antichrist
a. "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"
b. "desolations are determined"

DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK
6. Verse 27 --
"he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" (7 years) - the Antichrist will then execute a covenant of peace with Israel.

"in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" -- the Antichrist will violate his covenant after 3 1/2 years, stop the sacrifices in the future third temple at Jerusalem, and set up the Abomination of Desolation (a blasphemous and blaspheming idol. See Rev 13).

"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" -- the Abomination of Desolation will trigger the Great Tribulation.

HERE IS WHAT JESUS SAID

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:15,16,21)

Even though Christ predicted the destruction of the existing (second) temple (also called Herod's temple), He foresaw a third temple in Israel at the time that the Antichrist would take power. There are plans in Israel at present to construct this temple.




 
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1stCenturyLady

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We need to take the entire passage (Dan 9:24-27) as one unit, but also tie it in with the other related prophecies in Daniel:

THE SEVENTY "WEEKS" OF DANIEL
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1. We need to take the entire chapter as the context. Daniel was living in exile in Babylon but was fully aware that the Babylonian captivity of his people (the Jews) would be for only 70 years. Yet he prayed for the temple, Jerusalem, Judah, and Israel: that God would be merciful to them and bring their captivity to an end.

2. Because Daniel was very pleasing to God, he was then given a revelation of the future of Israel from the end of the Babylonian captivity to the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth ("to bring in everlasting righteousness"), wherein Israel would be the primary nation through which God would deal with all the saved nations on earth.

3. verse 24:
"Seventy weeks" is actually "seventy sevens" (heptads) in Hebrew, and indicates a period of 490 years (70 x 7) before everlasting righteousness is established on earth. [Note: the Church Age is not presented here, thus provides a gap between the 483rd year and the last week of Daniel.]

4. verse 25:

seven weeks = 7 x 7 = 49 years
threescore weeks = 7 x 20 x 3 (60) = 420 years
two weeks = 7 x 2 = 14
49 + 420 + 14 = 483

456 BC + 27 AD = 483


456 BC "The commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" given by Cyrus, king of Persia, in his first year. (Note: Ptolemy's chronology was incorrect by 80 years and his date was 536 BC for the first year of Cyrus. See Martin Anstey's The Chronology of the Old Testament)

27 AD -- "unto Messiah the Prince" -- the beginning of the public ministry of Christ.

30 AD --
"Messiah shall be cut off" -- the crucifixion of Christ

5. Verse 26 -- "the prince that shall come" = the Antichrist
a. "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"
b. "desolations are determined"

DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK
6. Verse 27 --
"he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" (7 years) - the Antichrist will then execute a covenant of peace with Israel.

"in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" -- the Antichrist will violate his covenant after 3 1/2 years, stop the sacrifices in the future third temple at Jerusalem, and set up the Abomination of Desolation (a blasphemous and blaspheming idol. See Rev 13).

"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" -- the Abomination of Desolation will trigger the Great Tribulation.

HERE IS WHAT JESUS SAID

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:15,16,21)

Even though Christ predicted the destruction of the existing (second) temple (also called Herod's temple), He foresaw a third temple in Israel at the time that the Antichrist would take power. There are plans in Israel at present to construct this temple.




I agree.