Sound Doctrine

[Prayer Warrior]

First, I agree that one scripture passage does not cancel out any other. If there appears to be a contradiction in scripture, then we continue to compare scripture with scripture until full understanding develops.
I also agree that Paul recommended that the church should continue in those traditions begun in earlier times...as in the primitive apostolic church. However, just as scripture must agree with scripture, then tradition must also agree with scripture. For if tradition contradicts scripture, we have the quandary of which to follow...I think you would agree that the word of God ought always take the prime seat when it comes to authority. I know of no tradition that Paul observed that contradicted scripture. I can think of many tradtions that the RCC observes that is neither taught in scripture, neither hinted at or even suggested...yet is claimed as mandatory in Catholic catechisms as being essential to faith and practice.
So then we come to certain church ordinances and teachings that we may disagree on. The Catholic church would teach that they differ because they take into account certain traditions and oral teachings handed down from the church fathers...the protestant would say that those teachings cannot be correct, because they contradict scripture. Mary comes along and says the protestant has no right to claim right or wrong, because they are usurping church authority. So if the church says scripture means such and such, (because tradition says so) and such teachings must be adhered to and is Truth (dogma), then Mary, I have news for you.
It isn't scripture that has any authority in Catholicism. Nor is it tradition. It is the church. No longer in Catholic tradition is it that the scriptures have authority over faith and practice. It is now Catholic tradition that the Catholic church has sole authority on declaring what scripture means, its understanding, its interpretation, its significance in church life. Thus the church, and ultimately the pope, becomes a false idol and a god.

Well spoken, Brakelite!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

This is from the Catholic "Profession of Fatih" of the Council of Trent:

“The apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and all other observances and constitutions of that same [Catholic] Church I most firmly admit and embrace. I likewise accept Holy Scripture according to that sense which our holy Mother Church has held and does hold, whose [office] it is to judge of the true meaning and interpretation of the sacred Scriptures; I shall never accept nor interpret it otherwise than in accordance with the unanimous consent of the Fathers.”
​

(source: Absolute Biblical Truth Opposed by Roman Catholicism | Berean Beacon --bereanbeacon.org)

 

[bbyrd009]

This is from the Catholic "Profession of Fatih" of the Council of Trent:

fwiw there were three Councils of Trent, the last one a complete circus, and these Councils split the established church--the wolves iow--in half. How this is not proclaimed more often in the Prot church is...ha, not very surprising, i guess, but the story is fascinating, the Councils of Trent are where the Strong Arm is revealed, but then we all worship the Duke anyway and i'm sure it would all get justified as God's Will or something anyway. never bothered to find the RCC justification for Trent, i'm sure it's a doozy, and no doubt they only recognize "the Council of Trent," etc, which was the 19th Council, and took 19 years by Hebrew reckoning, let the reader understand

 

[Marymog]

Mary, if Catholic doctrine was based on the Bible, I wouldn't be concerned about your spreading it all around. But I'm concerned for Christians who don't have a clue how unscriptural Catholic doctrine is. I'm also concerned about your soul. How can you end up in heaven when you base your faith on so many lies?

From the heart, Deborah

Thank you Deborah. If you could explain to me how you know YOUR doctrine is based on the bible, and the CC isn't, I would leave the Catholic Church TODAY.

Here is one more chance to pull me to your side. Since you (and I) are unable to us Scripture Alone (no tradition) to definitively know what books belong in our Bible AND since you clearly disagree with The Church doctrine of following sacred Tradition can you tell me, using scripture alone, who wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

ok Mary, fwiw i only meant why subject yourself to us if you are not here to learn, we are hard enough on Protestants as it is?

Are you suggesting I am ignorant? How condescending of you.

Since this thread is about Sound Doctrine do you, BBYRD, believe sola Scriptura is a Sound Doctrine?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

First, I agree that one scripture passage does not cancel out any other. If there appears to be a contradiction in scripture, then we continue to compare scripture with scripture until full understanding develops.
I also agree that Paul recommended that the church should continue in those traditions begun in earlier times...as in the primitive apostolic church. However, just as scripture must agree with scripture, then tradition must also agree with scripture. For if tradition contradicts scripture, we have the quandary of which to follow...I think you would agree that the word of God ought always take the prime seat when it comes to authority. I know of no tradition that Paul observed that contradicted scripture. I can think of many tradtions that the RCC observes that is neither taught in scripture, neither hinted at or even suggested...yet is claimed as mandatory in Catholic catechisms as being essential to faith and practice.
So then we come to certain church ordinances and teachings that we may disagree on. The Catholic church would teach that they differ because they take into account certain traditions and oral teachings handed down from the church fathers...the protestant would say that those teachings cannot be correct, because they contradict scripture. Mary comes along and says the protestant has no right to claim right or wrong, because they are usurping church authority. So if the church says scripture means such and such, (because tradition says so) and such teachings must be adhered to and is Truth (dogma), then Mary, I have news for you.
It isn't scripture that has any authority in Catholicism. Nor is it tradition. It is the church. No longer in Catholic tradition is it that the scriptures have authority over faith and practice. It is now Catholic tradition that the Catholic church has sole authority on declaring what scripture means, its understanding, its interpretation, its significance in church life. Thus the church, and ultimately the pope, becomes a false idol and a god.

Very impressive Brakelite. I actually enjoyed reading this post from you and you were making sense....Until the last sentence.

Before I respond I would like to make sure I am understanding you correctly so I don't put words in your mouth.

From what I gather of your post you do not like or you disagree with The Church using Tradition in conjunction with Scripture?

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you suggesting I am ignorant? How condescending of you.

ah, well i guess i hadn't realized that you had learned everything already Mary, my apologies

 

[Marymog]

Tradition does not = Truth!

.....View attachment 4319

Hi BG,

We haven't talked in awhile and I am getting tired of talking to the men on here. I would like a woman's perspective on this.

I suspect you believe that the bible you read from contains The Truth? And that the books you have (66 or 73) is the correct amount of books that God wanted us to have? (mine is 73 btw)

You seem to think Tradition is a dirty word. Using Scripture can you show me the list of books you have in your bible?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

ah, well i guess i hadn't realized that you had learned everything already Mary, my apologies

Thank you for your apology....Now you do realize it.....now YOU have learned something

For you see when one follows The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of Truth, one knows that they have The Truth. Since you don't follow The Church, you don't have the confidence of knowing The Truth. It's not to late....you can join us.

Now, are you ready to get down to the matter at hand "Sound Doctrine" or do you intend to keep writing insignificant post that are only meant to harass and troll?

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

Since this thread is about Sound Doctrine do you, BBYRD, believe sola Scriptura is a Sound Doctrine?

i'm ignorant of what that even means Mary, sounds like some hocus-pocus Latin yack to me; guess i could look up the official def...ha, what does "the sole infallible rule of faith and practice" even mean, Mary? This is obv some politician's doctrine, but is there some v these ppl lean on for this? Bc wadr "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God" is the only v that is coming to mind for me

 

[bbyrd009]

Thank you for your apology....Now you do realize it.....now YOU have learned something

For you see when one follows The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of Truth, one knows that they have The Truth. Since you don't follow The Church, you don't have the confidence of knowing The Truth. It's not to late....you can join us.

Now, are you ready to get down to the matter at hand "Sound Doctrine" or do you intend to keep writing insignificant post that are only meant to harass and troll?

Mary

i bet you wear pants a lot huh Mary

does this answer your question? now since you like standing there so much i'll just let you have the last word ok, and i wish you the best

 

[Marymog]

i'm ignorant of what that even means Mary, sounds like some hocus-pocus Latin yack to me; guess i could look up the official def...ha, what does "the sole infallible rule of faith and practice" even mean, Mary? This is obv some politician's doctrine, but is there some v these ppl lean on for this? Bc wadr "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God" is the only v that is coming to mind for me

Fascinating that you are "ignorant of what that even means" when you posted 76 times on a separate thread ABOUT SOLA SCRIPTURA.

When your ready to be serious....let me know!

Mary

 

[Nancy]

Thank you for your apology....Now you do realize it.....now YOU have learned something

For you see when one follows The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of Truth, one knows that they have The Truth. Since you don't follow The Church, you don't have the confidence of knowing The Truth. It's not to late....you can join us.

Now, are you ready to get down to the matter at hand "Sound Doctrine" or do you intend to keep writing insignificant post that are only meant to harass and troll?

Mary

"For you see when one follows The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of Truth, one knows that they have The Truth."

I thought we were to be followers of Jesus, that is WHO I put my faith in ony Him. NOT the church or other mere humans. "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
My Truth comes from the One who brings me into ALL Truth-the Holy Spirit." Colossians 2:8 , Mark 7:8 ...

 

[Prayer Warrior]

One thing I've learned while debating Catholic doctrine on this forum is that the leaders of the Catholic Church consider their church to be the one true church. Basically, their catechism teaches that you aren't a Christian unless you're a member of the Catholic Church (i.e. "Catholic dogma is...that outside the [Catholic] Church there is no salvation."--quoted from Catholic.com)

“Believing” is an ecclesial act. The [Catholic] Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports, and nourishes our faith. The [Catholic] Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the [Catholic] Church as Mother” (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519). (emphasis added)​

Quoted from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Para. 181 (I added the word Catholic in all three places because it's implied in the text. To Catholics, "the Church" with a capital C is the Catholic Church.)

Edit: Also, "The Second Vatican Council affirmed that the Catholic Church is the 'sole Church of Christ' that Christ established on the earth (Lumen Gentium 8)." (from Catholic.com)

 

[Prayer Warrior]

i bet you wear pants a lot huh Mary

does this answer your question? now since you like standing there so much i'll just let you have the last word ok, and i wish you the best

I've been learning that it doesn't pay to react to someone's goading. The best thing to do is to speak the truth in love hoping that those who are misled will come to the truth.

 

[Marymog]

"For you see when one follows The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of Truth, one knows that they have The Truth."

I thought we were to be followers of Jesus, that is WHO I put my faith in ony Him. NOT the church or other mere humans. "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
My Truth comes from the One who brings me into ALL Truth-the Holy Spirit." Colossians 2:8 , Mark 7:8 ...

Hi Nancy. Good to hear from you. Here are four easy peasy lemon squeezie questions for you since you are obviously a bible believing Christian:

Do you have faith in the fact that you have all the correct books in the NT you are quoting from?

In Matthew 18:15-17, when the one brother REFUSED to listen to the two other brothers, who did Jesus tell them to take the matter to to settle the issue between them?

If I am to make sure that no one takes me captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy how can I be certain that you are not the one trying to make me captive with your philosophy? Is it because you do not rely on human tradition and I do?

Mary

 

[Prayer Warrior]

"For you see when one follows The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of Truth, one knows that they have The Truth."

I thought we were to be followers of Jesus, that is WHO I put my faith in ony Him. NOT the church or other mere humans. "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
My Truth comes from the One who brings me into ALL Truth-the Holy Spirit." Colossians 2:8 , Mark 7:8 ...

I agree! But that's not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Code of Canon Law, Canon 749:

"The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful...he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such." (emphasis added)
​

In case you were wondering, the "Supreme Pontiff" is the pope, aka "The Holy Father."
.

 

[bbyrd009]

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

word

 

[Episkopos]

One thing I've learned while debating Catholic doctrine on this forum is that the leaders of the Catholic Church consider their church to be the one true church. Basically, their catechism teaches that you can't be a Christian unless you're a member of the Catholic Church.

“Believing” is an ecclesial act. The [Catholic] Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports, and nourishes our faith. The [Catholic] Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the [Catholic] Church as Mother” (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519). (emphasis added)​

Quoted from CCC, Para. 181 (I added the word Catholic in all three places because it's implied in the text. To Catholics, "the Church" with a capital C is the Catholic Church.)

Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[bbyrd009]

“Believing” is an ecclesial act. The [Catholic] Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports, and nourishes our faith.

love the cavalier conflation of belief and faith too, tra-la
he's a u nit alright