Eternal Security

[Rollo Tamasi]

John 1:12-13:
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural decent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

There seems to be a difference between
those who receive him" and " those who believed in his name".
Yet either way, they have a "right" to be children of God.
So it seems to me that you do not have eternal security unless you "act" on your free gift of eternal life.
`

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

 

[GodsGrace]

John 1:12-13:
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural decent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

There seems to be a difference between
those who receive him" and " those who believed in his name".
Yet either way, they have a "right" to be children of God.
So it seems to me that you do not have eternal security unless you "act" on your free gift of eternal life.
`

How do you "act" on your free gift of eternal security?

 

[justbyfaith]

Seems like free will is being ignored.

Free will is able to defeat the sovereignty of God, so that the message of the gospel can be compromised and many people will not be saved as the result?

This is a God that is not Omnipotent, loving, and Sovereign.

Not the God that I serve and believe in.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How do you "act" on your free gift of eternal security?

By "showing" God you truly love him whether through prayer or trust or goodwill.

 

[CoreIssue]

Free will is able to defeat the sovereignty of God, so that the message of the gospel can be compromised and many people will not be saved as the result?

This is a God that is not Omnipotent, loving, and Sovereign.

Not the God that I serve and believe in.

But Romans 8 makes it clear we will not leave him.

 

[justbyfaith]

But Romans 8 makes it clear we will not leave him.

I'm not sure what you think that has to do with what I said in light of your statement.

 

[GodsGrace]

By "showing" God you truly love him whether through prayer or trust or goodwill.

Agreed.
Faith is useless unless we act upon it -- in whatever way we can.

 

[GodsGrace]

But Romans 8 makes it clear we will not leave him.

Where in Romans 8 does it state we will never leave God??
(I just don't want to search for scripture)

 

[gadar perets]

It seems to me that you have a problem with God's Sovereignty and love.

I have no problem with YHWH's Sovereignty. That is why I am a pure monotheist and not a trinitarian. His Sovereignty is not to be shared with another. If it was, He would no longer be Sovereign. Nor do I have a problem with His love. If it weren't for His love, I would still be dead in my sins.

Why or how would God, being both sovereign and loving, allow the religion that He defines as the only way to salvation, to be corrupted to the point that those who officially believe in that religion don't even have the truth that brings salvation?

YHWH never said a "religion" is the way to salvation. That honor goes to His Son Yeshua. Your problem is you exalt Christianity as the way of salvation rather than the Son.

I never said Christianity does not have the truth that brings salvation. That is one of the truth's they still have (salvation by grace through faith in Yeshua), even though they call him by an erroneous name.

Acts 20:29-30 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.​

It is because of YHWH's love for us that the great truth's of the apostolic days are being restored.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have no problem with YHWH's Sovereignty. That is why I am a pure monotheist and not a trinitarian. His Sovereignty is not to be shared with another. If it was, He would no longer be Sovereign. Nor do I have a problem with His love. If it weren't for His love, I would still be dead in my sins.


YHWH never said a "religion" is the way to salvation. That honor goes to His Son Yeshua. Your problem is you exalt Christianity as the way of salvation rather than the Son.

I never said Christianity does not have the truth that brings salvation. That is one of the truth's they still have (salvation by grace through faith in Yeshua), even though they call him by an erroneous name.

Acts 20:29-30 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.​

It is because of YHWH's love for us that the great truth's of the apostolic days are being restored.

Hi GP,
As you know, I don't like to debate with you but I wish you'd stop using Acts 20:29-30 as a proof text. It always make me think that YOU could be one of those wolves. It could be understood that YOU might be trying to draw some away.

You say we're returning to Apostolic days....are you aware that the Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers believed Jesus to be God?

 

[gadar perets]

Hi GP,
As you know, I don't like to debate with you but I wish you'd stop using Acts 20:29-30 as a proof text. It always make me think that YOU could be one of those wolves. It could be understood that YOU might be trying to draw some away.

Wolves do not draw people to away to exclusively worship Almighty YHWH as the "only true God" (John 17:3). Wolves try to get people to worship someone else as the "only true God". Wolves do not admonish people to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. Wolves try to get people to break the commandments.

You say we're returning to Apostolic days....are you aware that the Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers believed Jesus to be God?

By "apostolic days" I mean the days when the original apostles were still alive. Also, the "Fathers" you speak of did NOT speak English. Therefore, to say they believed Jesus to be "God" is incorrect. They may very well have believed Yeshua was an "elohim" or a "theos" as I do.

BTW, you look younger every time I see you

 

[CoreIssue]

Where in Romans 8 does it state we will never leave God??
(I just don't want to search for scripture)

It says those of love him are predestined all the way to glorification and no one can take us from the hand of God.

Added the verses talking about our spirits being washed clean, eternity in the New Jerusalem, etc, it has to mean we won't leave.

Same principle as the angels who did not rebel.

 

[Phoneman777]

So are you saying that when a person receives salvation they receive salvation unto an eternal existence in hell?

I'm saying just as the parachute must remain on our back if it is to save us from a deadly fall, salvation is a saving relationship that we must enter in and remain in. [/QUOTE]

Salvation is unto an eternal existence in heaven (something like Hawaii rather than Auschwitz).

To the person who decides sin is more precious than Jesus, eternity without sin would be for them eternal torment.

People can walk away from "the faith", because all they had if they do so was a mental assent to the tenets of the gospel.

Peter compares those who've "escaped the pollutions of this world" to a sow that was "washed", meaning "cleansed", purified", "without spot or wrinkle or any such thing" - that is well beyond "mental assent". Why do you OSAS guys fail to recognize that their "escape" was not to some "valley of decision", but an escape to the arms of Jesus in a full blown relationship with Him?

But if someone has a genuine living and saving faith, they cannot lose their salvation (John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20), and will not walk away from faith (as opposed to "the faith"). (Jeremiah 32:38-40).

Saints can and many often do reject the saving relationship into which they've previously entered. (Hebrews 6:4-6; 1 Peter 2:20-22; Hebrews 10:26-27; Matthew 18:22-34). As for your "proof" texts in red, they are presented without proper consideration of these other texts in blue:
John5:24 - That promise is to those who continue in belief and "endureth" to the end (Matthew24:13)
John6:47 - That promise is to those who continue in belief and "endureth" to the end (Matthew24:13)
John10:27-30 - We must continue without ceasing to "daily" following Jesus (Luke9:23)
Hebrews13:5 - He will never leave us, but we are free to walk away from Him (John15:1-11)
Matthew28:20 - The promise applies to those who continue in Him, not those who cease to (1Samuel 28:5-6; Hosea4:17)

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes, you misunderstood my point because it had absolutely nothing to do with people in the Kingdom who never heard the Gospel. My point relates to people like me that are not "Christians", but who ARE members of the Body of Messiah through faith. You wrote, "3) New Creatures in Christ is another way of saying "members of the Christian church", right?" However, I am a new creature in "Christ", but I am not a member of the "Christian church". Thus my need to correct your statement.


Yes, I agree with both statements (which, again, have nothing to do with my point).


We are saved by grace through faith, not by pronunciation. However, if one wants to worship in truth and loves the truth, then that person will want to restore the Father's name where men removed it and the Son's name where men changed it to their own liking.

Didn't Paul refer to Jesus by the Greek "Iesus"? BTW, it's impossible to be a member of the body of Christ without being a member of His church, because both are synonymous.

 

[GodsGrace]

It says those of love him are predestined all the way to glorification and no one can take us from the hand of God.

Added the verses talking about our spirits being washed clean, eternity in the New Jerusalem, etc, it has to mean we won't leave.

Same principle as the angels who did not rebel.

I can't find these verses.
Could you post them please?
Thanks.

 

[gadar perets]

Didn't Paul refer to Jesus by the Greek "Iesus"?

"Iesus" is Latin. If Paul wrote in Greek, then he used ιησους - "Iesous" (Yay-soo-us), but only because that was the best transliteration into Greek since Greek does not have an "sh" sound to say "Yeshua" (Yay-shoo-a). Also, masculine names in Greek end with "s". So, in other words, Paul tried to write "Yeshua" using the Greek alphabet, but the best he could do in bringing the sound of the Son's name over into Greek was "Iesous".

 

[GodsGrace]

Wolves do not draw people to away to exclusively worship Almighty YHWH as the "only true God" (John 17:3). Wolves try to get people to worship someone else as the "only true God". Wolves do not admonish people to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. Wolves try to get people to break the commandments.


By "apostolic days" I mean the days when the original apostles were still alive. Also, the "Fathers" you speak of did NOT speak English. Therefore, to say they believed Jesus to be "God" is incorrect. They may very well have believed Yeshua was an "elohim" or a "theos" as I do.

BTW, you look younger every time I see you

Yes. I do my best!

 

[CoreIssue]

I can't find these verses.
Could you post them please?
Thanks.

Is there really need to post verses for angels and the New Jerusalem?

For the rest read Romans 8.

 

[justbyfaith]

Starting to grow weary in well-doing. It is the same old battles over and over again.