Prayer Warrior
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Bob, you've been talking a lot about the Jesuits (the pope's hitmen). I thought you might be interested in this article.
Pope Francis: Master of Jesuit Spiritual Exercises | Berean Beacon
Books Outside the Bible
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Pope Francis: Master of Jesuit Spiritual Exercises | Berean Beacon
Some interesting facts from wikipedia:, my words in italics
The Protestant Reformation, and especially the English Reformation, brought new suspicions against the Jesuits, who were accused of infiltrating political realms and non-Catholic churches. In England, it was forbidden to belong to the Jesuits, under grave penalties, including the death penalty.
In 17th Century France, the development of Jansenism, a Catholic theological movement emphasising original sin, led to intra-church rivalries between Jesuits and Jansenists, (gotta love those Jansenists, eh PW?)
Many anti-Jesuit conspiracy theories emerged in the 18th century Enlightenment, as a result of an alleged rivalry between the Freemasons and the Jesuits. (gotta love those Freemasons, eh PW?)
Healy observes that "Feeling themselves haunted by the Jesuits, anti-Jesuits revealed themselves to be less rational than they believed." Their discourse, with its "skewed" perception of reality, "resembled, in certain respects, the 'paranoid style' of politics identified by the American historian, Richard Hofstadter".[10]
In the 1930s, Jesuit conspiracy theories were made use of by the Nazi Party with the goal of reducing the influence of the Jesuits, who ran secondary schools and engaged in youth work. A propaganda pamphlet, "The Jesuit: The Obscurantist without a Homeland" by Hubert Hermanns, warned against the Jesuits' "dark power" and "mysterious intentions". Declared "public vermin" [Volksschädlinge] by the Nazis, Jesuits were persecuted, interned, and sometimes murdered.[12]
The Nazi Party!!! You have an ally, PW!!!
...and that the Jesuits played a role in the Assassination of John F. Kennedy.[14] Skeptic Bob Blaskiewicz also claims that Phelps told him the alleged "Grey aliens" are not aliens but creations of Jesuit science.[15]
The Jesuits killed Kennedy and made aliens!!! And the Jesuits sunk the Titanic!!!
In their book Titanic & Olympic: The Truth Behind the Conspiracy, historians Bruce Beveridge and Steve Hall debunk various conspiracy theories about the sinking of the Titanic, including one, which they describe as falling into the category of the "completely ridiculous", that the Jesuits were responsible.
So what if it's ridiculous! Put anything opposing the Jesuits on the bereansbeacon site and gullible Christians will believe it!
If you love slander and lies, bereanbeacon is the site for you!!!
Jesuit conspiracy theories - Wikipedia
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Prayer Warrior
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Epo, if you had even looked at the article I linked, you would have seen that it has nothing to do with conspiracy theories. You imply that I'm okay with evil satanic groups like the Nazis and Freemasons, and then you have the nerve to talk about others spreading slander and lies? You're the one spreading slander and lies!
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Yes Mary. I am quite familiar with that drum pounded by "Bible Christian" bigots. Correct them with facts, and they jump to the next item on their long list of lies.
Isaiah 8:20 doesn't give a list of books belonging in the Bible. This is a non-reply. You cannot admit the books of the Bible were compiled by the authority of the Catholic Church. So you defy your own scholars and invent Bible origin fantasies.
No answer to what? You don't ask questions, just baseless insults and walls of anti-Catholic falsehoods. I'm still waiting for a 66 Bible codex or canon that was used/copied before the 14th century. And you are too proud to admit it doesn't exist.
Do you believe Paul's SPOKEN words were divinely inspired? Or did he read to the Bereans from the New Testament? The SPOKEN words of Jesus and the Apostles are what we call Tradition, and the Bible says it wasn't all recorded. Your only option is to adulterate the meaning, and deny it's divine preservation.
Of course a 66 book Bible exists. It didn't exist before the 14th century.
Yes, more Bible. Do search on "Word of God" in any Bible search engine. Use any translation. You will get +-200 results. I haven't been able to find any instance where "Word of God" refers to the written word alone. Maybe you can find one. Then you can lecture us about not having
answers.
I'll re-word Isaiah 8:20 so it fits your presuppositions more clearly:
"to the LAW and to the written testimony if they speak not according to this written word alone there is no light in them" Isaiah 8:20
I know that is not what it says, but it is how you read it.
Acts 17:11-12 – here we see the verse “they searched the Scriptures.” This refers to the Bereans who used the Old Testament to confirm the oral teachings about the Messiah. The verses do not say the Bereans searched the Scriptures alone (which is what Protestants are attempting to prove when quoting this passage). Moreover, the Bereans accepted the oral teaching from Paul as God’s word before searching the Scriptures, which disproves the Berean’s use of sola Scriptura.
Acts 17:11-12 – Also, the Bereans, being more “noble” or “fair minded,” meant that they were more reasonable and less violent than the Thessalonians in Acts. 17:5-9. Their greater fairmindedness was not because of their use of Scripture, which Paul directed his listeners to do as was his custom (Acts 17:3).
It's ironic that an entire web site, dedicated to bashing Catholicism, names the site after the Bereans, yet Acts 17:11-12 refutes their pillar of sand.
We commonly hear accusations along these lines: such as that the Church for centuries provided only a few difficult-to-access “chained Bibles” and forbade Bible translations in the vernacular. This broad topic is one of the most cherished anti-Catholic myths, yet in point of fact it's an outrageous falsehood: easily overturned by fair-minded historical investigation. I shall attempt to briefly summarize the facts that run counter to this viewpoint.
Perhaps the best and most decisive response to this myth is to cite the preface of the King James 1611 English translation of the Bible, which describes the long history of vernacular translations in England long before Protestantism ever arose:
Was the Catholic Church Historically an Enemy of the Bible?
Perhaps the best and most decisive response to this myth is to cite the preface of the King James 1611 English translation of the Bible, which describes the long history of vernacular translations in England long before Protestantism ever arose:
Was the Catholic Church Historically an Enemy of the Bible?
What most Catholic scholars would be aware of, and hide, and most Protestant scholars unaware of, do have no foundation for understanding this topic, is the historically verifiable fact that before Jerome existed a Bible originating in Antioch, written in the Itala language, and used as the foundation for the true church among the Waldenses and Albigenses and the Celtic churches for centuries. Jerome's Latin Vulgate was Rome's pet, but rejected by everyone else.
Roman propaganda and lies will of course dispute this, branding those ancient heroes of the faith as heretics. However, an honest study of history, and the writings of many historians gives the lie to such fraudulent claims from the Roman counterfeiters.
Roman propaganda and lies will of course dispute this, branding those ancient heroes of the faith as heretics. However, an honest study of history, and the writings of many historians gives the lie to such fraudulent claims from the Roman counterfeiters.
I just got here and can't possibly read this thread from the beginning so I don't know what's going on.
To your comment above, I would like to say that the CC has informed its congregation (at least those interested -- not many are) that if they have a bible from before 2008 they should buy a new one.
All "catholic" bibles, with the extra 7 books in them, were translated from the Latin. The new catholic bibles have been translated from the original Greek.
I do wish someone would point out what difference this makes since I don't cling to every word in any bible but to the whole and complete picture...that would be interesting.
Could you please reply to the charge that Tyndale was killed by the CC because he printed a bible that everyone could read??
Actually that is merely a "game" Catholics play. No truth to it.
We see Isaiah 8:20 another great example of the Bible rule demanding "sola scriptura testing" that comes "without a complete index to all books of the Bible". The much-made-up-rule that Catholics invent here -- is merely "a game" for them - it has nothing to do with accurate Bible rendering of the text or logic.
And it also does not name your dog or your cat for you. "Making up games" seems to be the Catholic "Answer" when they have no answer these days.
Meanwhile we DO have "They studied the scriptures daily TO SEE IF those things spoken by the APOSTLE Paul - WERE SO" Acts 17:11 -- the very thing Catholics imagine you cannot do without the same text giving you a list of the 66 book of scripture.
What you say cannot exist -- exists.
Until you actually read it.
"to the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word there is no light in them" Isaiah 8:20
Less hopeful fiction -- more Bible please.
It also does not tell you the name of your cat or the name of your dog. There is nothing in the "Sola Scriptura" doctrine stating that it requires an index of books to be given before the reader can take Isaiah 8:20 or Acts 17:11 seriously. And we all know it.
That is just a "game" that catholics play with the topic - as already noted. This is the "easy part".
The fiction that nobody read the Bible until Catholics came along - was debunked a long time ago.
Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Read your Bible. Less gaming ... more Bible please.
Read your Bible. Less emotionalism... more facts please
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Read your Bible. Less gaming ... more Bible please.
Peter said that Paul's teaching was already accepted as part of scripture -- centuries before the RCC came into being. Peter's statement is true even though Peter did not append "a 66 Bible codex" to 2 Peter 3. And we all know it.
What is more the Bereans are "studying the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the APOSTLE Paul -- were SO" Acts 17:11
1. WITHOUT there having to first be an RCC
2. WITHOUT even having to be Christian at all!!
Essentially every rabbit-trail gaming trick our Catholic friends have tried to argue that these Bible texts cannot exist -- has failed.
To "SEE IF those things are SO" -- to TEST.
Instead of that utter and total fiction where you merely "quote you" to insert the salient point "needed" by your own argument - but missing in the actual text... we have THIS in Acts 17:11
"They studied the scriptures daily TO SEE IF those things spoken by the APOSTLE Paul - WERE SO" Acts 17:11
When you make stuff up like that -- and post what your argument "NEEDED" to have found in Acts 17:11 (but did not find there, so you merely quote "you") - you expose the fallacy in your argument for all to see! You knew that right??
Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??
How in the world did you think that would ever fly???
discernment.
Objective critical thinking..
what a concept.
Thanks for posting that. In fact they were reading scripture (Acts 17:11, Luke 24:27) and including the writing of Paul (2 Peter 3:16) before the close of the first century. Long before any RCC existed.
What is interesting is that the Vulgate was placing the Bible in the language of the people... translating from Greek to Latin. The very thing that the RCC forbade at the time of the Reformation!! How "instructive" that they would burn and ban the Bible in the language of the people when in fact Jerome had done that very thing centuries before!!
And even HE noted that the apocrypha was NOT part of the canon of scripture!
BreadOfLife
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BreadOfLife
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Sharing the Gospel and perverting it are TWO separate issues.
YOU engage in the latter . . .
Jun2u
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Just the same, many thanks for letting me share the true Gospel with you.
To God Be The Glory
Rollo Tamasi
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Hey madman, I mean Breadman, that wafer in front of you has a chip in it
I think it fell on your shoulder...
BreadOfLife
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BreadOfLife
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If anyone has perverted the Gospel it is the RCC. This church teaches that you cannot be saved except through the RCC and through the sacraments. That is a TOTAL PERVERSION of the Gospel.
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from BBC History - William Tyndale
An English Bible
In 1523, Tyndale moved to London with the intention of translating the New Testament into English, an act that was strictly forbidden. He passionately believed that the Bible should determine the practice and doctrine of the Church and that people should be able to read the Bible in their own language. Tyndale was setting himself against the established Church in England as these sorts of ideas were closely associated with Martin Luther and other controversial Protestant religious reformers.
In 1524, Tyndale left England for Germany with the aid of London merchants. He hoped to continue his translation work in greater safety and sought out the help of Martin Luther at Wittenberg. Just one year after his English New Testament was completed and printed in Cologne in 1525, copies were being smuggled into England – the first ever Bibles written in the English vernacular.
In hiding
Tyndale’s work was denounced by authorities of the Roman Catholic Church and Tyndale himself was accused of heresy. He went into hiding and began work on a translation of the Old Testament directly from Hebrew into English. The emissaries of the King Henry VIII and Cardinal Thomas Wolsey were unable to track him down and the location of Tyndale’s hiding place remains a mystery to this day.
Henry VIII’s break with the Catholic Church in 1534 signalled the beginning of the English Reformation, and Tyndale believed it was safe to carry on his work in public. He moved to Antwerp (in modern Belgium) and began to live more openly.
Betrayal
Soon afterwards Tyndale was betrayed by his friend Henry Phillips. He was arrested for heresy by imperial authorities and imprisoned for over 500 days in Vilvoorde Castle. On 6 October 1536, Tyndale was tried and convicted of heresy and treason and put to death by being strangled and burned at the stake. By this time several thousand copies of his New Testament had been printed.
It was reported that Tyndale’s last words before his death were "Lord, open the king of England's eyes." Just three years later Henry VIII published his English “Great Bible” based on Tyndale’s work. Even though Tyndale’s translation of the Old Testament remained unfinished at his death, his work formed the basis of all subsequent English translations of the Bible, including the 'King James' version of 1611.
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