Blinded.

[VictoryinJesus]

Psalm 69:21-28
[21] They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. [22] Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. [23] Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. [24] Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. [25] Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. [26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. [27] Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. [28] Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

David prayed: Let their table become a snare.

Isaiah 51:16-23
[16] And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. [17] Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out. [18] There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up. [19] These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee? [20] Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the Lord , the rebuke of thy God. [21] Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine: [22] Thus saith thy Lord the Lord , and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: [23] But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

First question: “Bow down, that we may go over:” go over where? “...and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street...”

Second question: Romans 11:7-10 says “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. [9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: [10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

Yet in Isaiah God says:
“But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.” So are the ones ‘bowing down their back always’ in Romans (those blinded), are they David’s enemies whom the Lord said He would put the cup in their hand?

 

[Enoch111]

First question: “Bow down, that we may go over:” go over where? “...and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street...”

Isaiah 51:17-23 is a description of the judgment of Jerusalem at God's hands through the Babylonians (c 605-586 BC). Jerusalem and Judah were brought down to utter ruin, and the Jews were slaughtered and also taken captive. So verse 23 is a metaphor for the total humiliation of Jerusalem, pictured as a person who is laid down in the dust so that his enemies literally walk over him. "Go over" to complete their victory by returning to Babylon with the spoils of war and the captives of Judah.

And Romans 11:7-10 has nothing to do with this. Totally unrelated.

 

[ScottA]

Psalm 69:21-28
[21] They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. [22] Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. [23] Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. [24] Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. [25] Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. [26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. [27] Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. [28] Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

David prayed: Let their table become a snare.

Isaiah 51:16-23
[16] And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. [17] Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out. [18] There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up. [19] These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee? [20] Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the Lord , the rebuke of thy God. [21] Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine: [22] Thus saith thy Lord the Lord , and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: [23] But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

First question: “Bow down, that we may go over:” go over where? “...and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street...”

Second question: Romans 11:7-10 says “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. [9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: [10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

Yet in Isaiah God says:
“But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.” So are the ones ‘bowing down their back always’ in Romans (those blinded), are they David’s enemies whom the Lord said He would put the cup in their hand?

No, this is Israel, the body of Christ that was given, the sons of the first Adam, the flesh, the sacrifice.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No, this is Israel, the body of Christ that was given, the sons of the first Adam, the flesh, the sacrifice.

Matthew 9:11-13
[11] And when the Pharisees saw it , they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? [12] But when Jesus heard that , he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. [13] But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No, this is Israel, the body of Christ that was given, the sons of the first Adam, the flesh, the sacrifice.

One question: Romans 11:30
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Who goes over across the sacrifice? Me? When Jesus was stripped of His robe; were the sons of the first Adam (flesh)also stripped of their authority? I’m asking because it is significant to me. If because of their unbelief I walked over to belief...how could anyone look at what is laid under their feet and not have mercy?

 

[farouk]

@VictoryinJesus FYI:

"Blind unbelief is sure to err,
And scan His works in vain;
God is His own interpreter,
And He will make it plain." (William Cowper)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@VictoryinJesus FYI:

"Blind unbelief is sure to err,
And scan His works in vain;
God is His own interpreter,
And He will make it plain." (William Cowper)

Who is William Cowper?

“blind unbelief is sure to err,
and scan His works in vain(flesh);
God is His own interpreter(Spirit),
And He will make it plain.”

John 16:25-27
[25] These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. [26] At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And Romans 11:7-10 has nothing to do with this. Totally unrelated.

Ok.
2 Kings 2:15-16
[15] And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him. [16] And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the Lord hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.

Ezekiel 35:7-8
[7] Thus will I make mount Seir most desolate, and cut off from it him that passeth out and him that returneth. [8] And I will fill his mountains with his slain men : in thy hills, and in thy valleys, and in all thy rivers, shall they fall that are slain with the sword.

Ezekiel 32:2-4
[2] Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas(think of Jonah): and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers. [3] Thus saith the Lord God ; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net. [4] Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee.

Unrelated? What is Egypt? Is it not progression in the totality of the fulfillment of the Word of God?

 

[bbyrd009]

Who is William Cowper?

Ha! pretty obv a determinist i guess huh? Not a bad poet in general though i guess.
Seems to me Blind Belief is pretty sure to err too though

 

[ScottA]

One question: Romans 11:30
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Who goes over across the sacrifice? Me? When Jesus was stripped of His robe; were the sons of the first Adam (flesh)also stripped of their authority? I’m asking because it is significant to me. If because of their unbelief I walked over to belief...how could anyone look at what is laid under their feet and not have mercy?

We too are sons and daughters of the first Adam, and we too lay down our flesh, that having been given new birth in the spirit, we may cross over. This is what it means to follow Christ. Israel on the other hand, had to be carried over. They are the dead in Christ.

 

[farouk]

Who is William Cowper?

“blind unbelief is sure to err,
and scan His works in vain(flesh);
God is His own interpreter(Spirit),
And He will make it plain.”

John 16:25-27
[25] These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. [26] At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

He wrote several hymns.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We too are sons and daughters of the first Adam, and we too lay down our flesh, that having been given new birth in the spirit, we may cross over. This is what it means to follow Christ. Israel on the other hand, had to be carried over. They are the dead in Christ.

Carried over? I don’t understand: Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:12,15
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? [15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be , but life from the dead?

An odd verse to bring in but I ask because of: Romans 16:19-20
[19] For your obedience is come abroad unto all men . I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. [20] And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

 

[ScottA]

Carried over? I don’t understand: Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:12,15
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? [15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be , but life from the dead?

An odd verse to bring in but I ask because of: Romans 16:19-20
[19] For your obedience is come abroad unto all men . I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. [20] And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Israel carried the burden of sacrifice for all other nations - that "all the nations of the world should be blessed through them." But "over" refers to that which is gained of the spirit of God, which Christ attained, but not before Israel fell into slumber - which in the world, is death, but in Christ, is life. In Whom we cross over "from death to life."

Since that time, those who "proceeded" us "in Christ", "the first who are last", "the dead in Christ"...they are with Him. And we, not being of the same calling, nor dead under the law, but under the curse...we are blessed equally, but without the same accommodation as the fallen. For which we can be grateful - but grateful to Christ, for He carried them to the "finish", but gave gifts to all who receive it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

nor dead under the law, but under the curse

What do you mean?

 

[ScottA]

What do you mean?

It is given once for [all] men to die. This is the curse, the judgement of God.

Among the elect, those under the law die in their sin. These are the dead in Christ. But those not under the law are not guilty of the law, and therefore if they believe in Christ by the witness as told by the dead or by the living, though they die, they shall live. These are the living in Christ.