Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

[Dave L]

No I don't

Thanks.

 

[101G]

Thanks.

do you?

 

[Dave L]

do you?

Yes, but no degree.

 

[APAK]

First thanks for the reply.

second, my belifs are centered on the Spirit who is JESUS the almighty God, who Diversified himself in flesh. no not as the Oneness Pentecostal teaches, nor do I believe in any Modalist system as those who believe in three persons.

the doctrine I believe in is scripture centered.

and you?

I do not follow any formal type or organization of doctrines and beliefs per se. I once said that I do follow to degrees a collection of beliefs and some unique to myself that I know of. The closest I would say that is aligned with my beliefs are the Conservative Biblical Unitarians, Christadelphians, the Polish Brotherhood/Brethren, and the SDA. I do not consider myself a follower of one or another.

Getting back to my previous post to you, to the point, the Father is the primary role to mankind and creation of God Almighty, and the source all divinity or Godhood or Godhead as you might call it. Jesus, the Son of God is more than a title. He is actually a created being that attained immortality as our savior and upon his resurrection he became a deity himself for the fort time, powered by God Almighty. Having said that, Jesus is still and always shall be subject to his Father, God Almighty. We as believers will also attain immortality and become deities under the power of God through the Son of God. This area of scripture is scant of information and subject to improvement. Now the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit is the composition (Major attribute) of God that extends into this world and in people in various degrees and power. It is the power and feedback and control feature of God essentially, that Jesus does share in and use, that executed and executes God Almighty's word (his inner expressions and commands and will/purposes) (John 1:1-3, 14) today and tomorrow. Jesus has the power of God today. So in summary, where you have 'just Jesus' as the Godhood, I have God Almighty and his Son, at this time. Later we will also be included in fully partake of the divinity of God Almighty, as true believers, in immortality.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[101G]

I do not follow any formal type or organization of doctrines and beliefs per se. I once said that I do follow to degrees a collection of beliefs and some unique to myself that I know of. The closest I would say that is aligned with my beliefs are the Conservative Biblical Unitarians, Christadelphians, the Polish Brotherhood/Brethren, and the SDA. I do not consider myself a follower of one or another.

Getting back to my previous post to you, to the point, the Father is the primary role to mankind and creation of God Almighty, and the source all divinity or Godhood or Godhead as you might call it. Jesus, the Son of God is more than a title. He is actually a created being that attained immortality as our savior and upon his resurrection he became a deity himself for the fort time, powered by God Almighty. Having said that, Jesus is still and always shall be subject to his Father, God Almighty. We as believers will also attain immortality and become deities under the power of God through the Son of God. This area of scripture is scant of information and subject to improvement. Now the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit is the composition (Major attribute) of God that extends into this world and in people in various degrees and power. It is the power and feedback and control feature of God essentially, that Jesus does share in and use, that executed and executes God Almighty's word (his inner expressions and commands and will/purposes) (John 1:1-3, 14) today and tomorrow. Jesus has the power of God today. So in summary, where you have 'just Jesus' as the Godhood, I have God Almighty and his Son, at this time. Later we will also be included in fully partake of the divinity of God Almighty, as true believers, in immortality.

Bless you,

APAK

He is actually a created being that attained immortality as our savior and upon his resurrection he became a deity himself for the fort time, powered by God Almighty. Having said that, Jesus is still and always shall be subject to his Father, God Almighty.

first thanks for the reply, second, excuse me for not replying sooner, (was away from the computer). but i did read your post, which above I do not agree with, nor the Unitarians beliefs.

but how did you get to the conclusion of the Lord Jesus "a created being?". please explain.

thanks in advance

 

[justbyfaith]

(7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), the Father (John 4:23-24), even the Holy Ghost (John 7:39).

He is actually a created being

I agree that in His humanity He was created (Romans 1:3 (kjv)); however this does not change the fact that He is the God who created us (Isaiah 45:11 , John 1:1-3 (kjv), John 1:14 (kjv), John 1:10 (kjv))

 

[101G]

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), the Father (John 4:23-24), even the Holy Ghost (John 7:39).



I agree that in His humanity He was created (Romans 1:3 (kjv)); however this does not change the fact that He is the God who created us (Isaiah 45:11 , John 1:1-3 (kjv), John 1:14 (kjv))

Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. what was born? flesh or spirit?

scripture,
Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".

examine that scripture and see if the spirit was born.

PICJAG

 

[justbyfaith]

Indeed, it was the flesh that was born. I believe that Jesus (the Son) as a Person is both human and divine. Of course, "prior" to His incarnation He is the Father.

 

[Dave L]

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), the Father (John 4:23-24), even the Holy Ghost (John 7:39).



I agree that in His humanity He was created (Romans 1:3 (kjv)); however this does not change the fact that He is the God who created us (Isaiah 45:11 , John 1:1-3 (kjv), John 1:14 (kjv), John 1:10 (kjv))

““When the Counselor comes, the One I will send to you from the Father —the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father—He will testify about Me. You also will testify, because you have been with Me from the beginning.” (John 15:26–27) (HCSB)

 

[Dave L]

I do not follow any formal type or organization of doctrines and beliefs per se. I once said that I do follow to degrees a collection of beliefs and some unique to myself that I know of. The closest I would say that is aligned with my beliefs are the Conservative Biblical Unitarians, Christadelphians, the Polish Brotherhood/Brethren, and the SDA. I do not consider myself a follower of one or another.

Getting back to my previous post to you, to the point, the Father is the primary role to mankind and creation of God Almighty, and the source all divinity or Godhood or Godhead as you might call it. Jesus, the Son of God is more than a title. He is actually a created being that attained immortality as our savior and upon his resurrection he became a deity himself for the fort time, powered by God Almighty. Having said that, Jesus is still and always shall be subject to his Father, God Almighty. We as believers will also attain immortality and become deities under the power of God through the Son of God. This area of scripture is scant of information and subject to improvement. Now the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit is the composition (Major attribute) of God that extends into this world and in people in various degrees and power. It is the power and feedback and control feature of God essentially, that Jesus does share in and use, that executed and executes God Almighty's word (his inner expressions and commands and will/purposes) (John 1:1-3, 14) today and tomorrow. Jesus has the power of God today. So in summary, where you have 'just Jesus' as the Godhood, I have God Almighty and his Son, at this time. Later we will also be included in fully partake of the divinity of God Almighty, as true believers, in immortality.

Bless you,

APAK

This is not true in any sense. Jesus is God, eternal.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1–3) (KJV 1900)

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14) (KJV 1900)

 

[101G]

Indeed, it was the flesh that was born. I believe that Jesus (the Son) as a Person is both human and divine. Of course, "prior" to His incarnation He is the Father.

ok, let me put it to you this way, do you have the Holy Spirit in you, do that make you divine?

but the Holy Spirit is in you RIGHT.

now JESUS is Divine in that flesh, but do that make that flesh divine? no

Adam before he sinned, had the Spirit in him, was he divine?.

think about it.

 

[APAK]

This is not true in any sense. Jesus is God, eternal.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1–3) (KJV 1900)

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14) (KJV 1900)

Yes, I have heard you state the same verses before Dave. So can you explain how these verses say Jesus is God.

Thanks, Blessings..

APAK

 

[101G]

Yes, I have heard you state the same verses before Dave. So can you explain how these verses say Jesus is God.

Thanks, Blessings..

APAK

if you don't mind me taking this, beside John 1:1c "WAS God".
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us".

and that name is Jesus,
Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins".

and once again his deity,
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 

[justbyfaith]

““When the Counselor comes, the One I will send to you from the Father —the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father—He will testify about Me. You also will testify, because you have been with Me from the beginning.” (John 15:26–27) (HCSB)

This does not change the fact that there is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); and that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24). So, instead of pitting these verses against each other, let us seek to understand how they come together.

Also, this explained it adequately enough for me:

Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

 

[APAK]

if you don't mind me taking this, beside John 1:1c "WAS God".
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us".

and that name is Jesus,
Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins".

and once again his deity,
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

To be fair and completely thorough and logical you are missing pieces of support for your argument. You must know this already. And why do you take for granted that what you read in scripture is the correct translation and thus your meaning(s) are based on them? Translators were not necessarily true believers. I would say most were not. They were more political and self-serving in many ways.


Matthew 1:23 indeed says that God is with us. I believe you have assumed that God became a human being as you have spoken of Emmanuel this way. I think you need to explain your basis for such an assumption. Where in scripture does it state explicitly or with a few strong implicit verses that God became a human being when he was conceived/ begotten?

To me, Emmanuel means that the word of God was indwelt (became) in Jesus when he was born (John 1:14) and Jesus of God lived amongst us. In the OT the expression Emmanuel was used to denote that God was with his people in battle and to overcome difficulties - to save them from death.

This term I believe is deliberately used in Matthew for Jesus and to compliment his name which means, He saves. Folks understood this name and expression completely. Furthermore, they also understood that Jesus would be God’s triumphant leader and conqueror as God performed in the OT. And Jesus was indeed the one to conquer sin and death for his people and all mankind. As you quoted Matthew 1:21, He shall save his people from their sins.

God Almighty for the first time in history spoke, thought and acted directly through a human being, called Jesus or Jeshua/ Joshua. God’s spirit possessed/ dominated Jesus’ human spirit if you will from birth, as Jesus yielded his spirit completely to his Father’s spirit as evident later in life. There are several verses in the NT acknowledging this point.

Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus was the image (mental - in thoughts and thus actions) of his Father and never thought he was equal with his Father (his word and spirit). He knew the word from his Father was his own and Jesus could not take credit for it/them and any miracles that Jesus was seen performing. Jesus always said he could never do anything without the Father.


Philippians 2:8: And being perceived as a normal man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (NEV)

Jesus was no ordinary man and he humbled and yielded his spirit being obedient to his Father’s spirit within him, until he was dead, on the cross/beam.

Jesus possessed the word of his Father. Jesus became the embodiment of God Almighty as a human being who existed for the time around 2-4 BC. John 1:18 said that Jesus is in the bosom of his Father. This support that the Father possesses Jesus completely with his word- mind and spirit. And that Jesus has revealed and explained the Father because the Father dwelt in him, in his mind, by his word.


Now you bring up Hebrews 1:8 as proof of Jesus’ deity. Well it does nothing of the sort. I’m surprised you do not explain yourself further on this. I guess just quoting the verse is sufficient proof for you?

I would not hang my hat or hang myself on this mistranslated verse if I were you. And there had better be at least another verse in the same language to support it for such an incredible and profound find.

Most Bibles have the expression “Mighty God” as if Jesus is God.

Two Examples:

(Heb 1:8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (KJV)

(Heb 1:8) But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (DR-Catholic)

Now we know this would be a complete and sudden surprise as one reads scripture and suddenly come upon these unbelievable words come into your view. It clearly does not fit the context of what was being said. That alone would place a red flag on it. If one is honest, this expression must stand out as a sore thumb and would require careful examination.

The contexts of Hebrews Chapter 1 clearly is all about God as the Father the supreme one and his Son as the lesser being. It was common in the OT times and NT, even in the early centuries to call a person in the duty of God Almighty to be called a god not THE GOD. A ruler and representative of God was could a god. Moses was called a god. It is also significant to point out that the original text of Hebrew or Greek was written in all caps with no spaces and punctuation. It was up to the translator to use his judgement to write God or god, period.

Now this verse has the same problem as the English translation of Isaiah 9:6. I have to say it was done deliberately to promote the Trinitarian view in scripture.

So, Heb 1:8 should say ‘god’ or even ‘One’ or even ‘hero’ as Martin Luther translated it.

(Heb 1:8) But of the Son He said: Your throne, O Mighty One, is for ever and ever, and the sceptre of your kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness. (NEV).



This makes more sense and conforms to the context that provides a clearer meaning.

Now also in Isaiah 9:6 The better translation with the correct meaning is of this type:

(Isa 9:6) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Divine Warrior, Father of the Eternal Age, Prince of Peace. (NEV)

Not as in nearly all other translations:

(Isa 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (KJV)

Jesus is not the mighty God, he is the mighty one, ruler, warrior or hero.

Also left for another time, Jesus is the father of the new creation of believers, head of the church. He is the father of it, the founder of it. He is the father of the future eternal age, and not the eternal father as this is solely the place of God Almighty.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Dave L]

This does not change the fact that there is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); and that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24). So, instead of pitting these verses against each other, let us seek to understand how they come together.

Also, this explained it adequately enough for me:

Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

What you miss is that the One Spirit of God has three persons. Father. Son, and Comforter, = Holy Spirit. If you think of God materialistically, you end up with a bunch of scriptures that don't fit.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, I have heard you state the same verses before Dave. So can you explain how these verses say Jesus is God.

Thanks, Blessings..

APAK

“Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5) (NET)

 

[justbyfaith]

In the OT the expression Emmanuel was used to denote that God was with his people in battle and to overcome difficulties - to save them from death.

Where in the OT?

Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus was the image (mental - in thoughts and thus actions) of his Father and never thought he was equal with his Father (his word and spirit).

In the kjv, Philippians 2:6 tells me that Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.

I would not hang my hat or hang myself on this mistranslated verse

Rule #5 in demon school...when the Bible proves you wrong, claim it has been mistranslated...

The contexts of Hebrews Chapter 1 clearly is all about God as the Father the supreme one and his Son as the lesser being.

I beg to differ. It would not be about that because the Bible teaches that Jesus is the Divine Creator; equal with the Father in His Deity (John 5:18).

Now this verse has the same problem as the English translation of Isaiah 9:6. I have to say it was done deliberately to promote the Trinitarian view in scripture.

I believe that Isaiah 9:6 supports the Oneness view of the Trinity rather than the traditional Trinitarian view.

Now also in Isaiah 9:6 The better translation with the correct meaning is of this type:

Again, rule #5 in demon school...(of course I made that up (or, it could be a word of knowledge)...but it is indeed logical that the devil would teach his demons to cast doubt on scripture in God's acceptable translation by claiming mistranslation and then pointing to a translation that is more to the devil's liking in that particular argument).

Not as in nearly all other translations:

(Isa 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (KJV)

Jesus is not the mighty God, he is the mighty one, ruler, warrior or hero.

There is a certain carnal hated of the idea that Jesus is the Lord God in the hearts of those who would have translated it differently than the kjv. This is another reason why I believe that the kjv stands as an authority on doctrine; because those who are worldly (the majority) prefer the translation of this verse in the Bible as something saying that Jesus isn't God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us that the natural man's inclination is to reject the things of the Spirit of God. As one who is born again of the Holy Spirit through the conditional promise given in Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39 (in which the Holy Ghost is absolutely promised to those who fulfill the condition); I believe with all of my heart that it is the Holy Spirit's message in Isaiah 9:6 that the son that was given is indeed the God who created us.

Also left for another time, Jesus is the father of the new creation of believers, head of the church. He is the father of it, the founder of it. He is the father of the future eternal age, and not the eternal father as this is solely the place of God Almighty.

There is only one Father (Malachi 2:10).

 

[101G]

This does not change the fact that there is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); and that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24). So, instead of pitting these verses against each other, let us seek to understand how they come together.

Also, this explained it adequately enough for me:

Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

Justbyfaith, while you're in John 14, listen to this,
John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him".

now tell us who is dwelling and making their abode in us.

is it the "Father", or is it the "Son", or is it the "Holy Spirit". which one(s).

read John 14:23 again before you answer.

and after you read John 14:23, then read 1 John 3:24.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Father dwells in us (Ephesians 4:6). The Son dwells in us (Colossians 1:27). And the Holy Ghost dwells in us (2 Timothy 1:14).

Yet, there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

That Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (Colossians 1:27), the Holy Ghost (John 7:39).