Calvinism is a Cult

[Lady Crosstalk]

We are conceived in sin my Sister. Read Romans 7:14-25. There is a battle of the spirit and the flesh of believers.

No, sin does NOT originate in the body--it originates in the soul. James 1:14 "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust." Mark 7:18-20--
"Are you still so dull?” He asked. “Do you not understand? Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him, 19because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into the stomach and then is eliminated.” (Thus all foods are clean.)

20He continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him. 21For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,h 22greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. 23All these evils come from within, and these are what defile a man.”

These sins are clearly conceived in the heart (roughly equivalent to the soul) and mind--NOT in the body. As far as we know, demons do not possess bodies (except the human ones that they try to take over) yet they are quite capable of coming up with an array of wicked actions which they try to get humans to carry out.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, sin does NOT originate in the body--it originates in the soul. James 1:14 "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust." Mark 7:18-20 "
Are you still so dull?” He asked. “Do you not understand? Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him, 19because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into the stomach and then is eliminated.” (Thus all foods are clean.)

20He continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him. 21For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,h 22greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. 23All these evils come from within, and these are what defile a man.”

These sins are clearly conceived in the heart (roughly equivalent to the soul) and mind--NOT in the body. As far as we know, demons do not possess bodies (except the human ones that they try to take over) yet they are quite capable of coming up with an array of wicked actions which they try to get humans to carry out.

But there is still the old man in the flesh and the flesh and spirit of man still fight with each other my Sister.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

But there is still the old man in the flesh and the flesh and spirit of man still fight with each other my Sister.

The "flesh" does not refer to the body but evil desires. The war is NOT between the body and the spirit. It is between the soul and the spirit. The body is simply the container.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, sin does NOT originate in the body--it originates in the soul. James 1:14 "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust." Mark 7:18-20--
"Are you still so dull?” He asked. “Do you not understand? Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him, 19because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into the stomach and then is eliminated.” (Thus all foods are clean.)

20He continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him. 21For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,h 22greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. 23All these evils come from within, and these are what defile a man.”

These sins are clearly conceived in the heart (roughly equivalent to the soul) and mind--NOT in the body. As far as we know, demons do not possess bodies (except the human ones that they try to take over) yet they are quite capable of coming up with an array of wicked actions which they try to get humans to carry out.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Clearly here, Paul is showing sin is still in the flesh, even after salvation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The "flesh" does not refer to the body but evil desires. The war is NOT between the body and the spirit. It is between the soul and the spirit. The body is simply the container.

Sarx also means flesh, the body of a human. He even says ‘which is in my members’.[Romans 7:23] Members in the Greek is melos which means a limb, among other things.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The "flesh" does not refer to the body but evil desires. The war is NOT between the body and the spirit. It is between the soul and the spirit. The body is simply the container.

Sin starts in the heart, but is also carried out in the body, the sarx, the flesh.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The "flesh" does not refer to the body but evil desires. The war is NOT between the body and the spirit. It is between the soul and the spirit. The body is simply the container.

Lusting in the heart is a sin, so that’s why ppl need to stop it and pray to God about it. Thinking evil thoughts shows ppl, even post-conversion, have to contend with sin.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Clearly here, Paul is showing sin is still in the flesh, even after salvation.

It is actually helpful to use a more modern translation:

"So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

18And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.d I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

21I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22I love God’s law with all my heart. 23But there is another powere within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin."

When we refer to "me" we are generally referring to our souls--what makes me, "me." The soul is the combination of mind, will and emotion (elementary theology). What Paul is depicting here is the battle between the soul and the spirit indwelt by our "helper," the Holy Spirit.

In the unregenerate, there is typically no such conflict. I am reminded of the young girl that a friend was counseling at a crisis pregnancy center. The girl was only sixteen, but this was her third pregnancy, after two previously aborted pregnancies. When my friend gently suggested that perhaps the girl should use protection against pregnancy or even, think about not having sex in her relationships. The girl was startled and said, "Can you do that?" She had NO thought that she was engaging in sexual immorality.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I was using the NASB from 1995.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is actually helpful to use a more modern translation:

"So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

18And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.d I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

21I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22I love God’s law with all my heart. 23But there is another powere within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin."

When we refer to "me" we are generally referring to our souls--what makes me, "me." The soul is the combination of mind, will and emotion (elementary theology). What Paul is depicting here is the battle between the soul and the spirit indwelt by our "helper," the Holy Spirit.

You’re using the NLT from 1996. One year different. Wow, that’s so much more modern than what I’m using. J/K my Sister.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is actually helpful to use a more modern translation:

"So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

18And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.d I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

21I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22I love God’s law with all my heart. 23But there is another powere within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin."

When we refer to "me" we are generally referring to our souls--what makes me, "me." The soul is the combination of mind, will and emotion (elementary theology). What Paul is depicting here is the battle between the soul and the spirit indwelt by our "helper," the Holy Spirit.

The point remains the same. Even saved ppl sin. They sin using their bodies. It starts in the heart and comes out in the flesh. Yes, even saved folk sin, and egregiously sin at times.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The point remains the same. Even saved ppl sin. They sin using their bodies. It starts in the heart and comes out in the flesh. Yes, even saved folk sin, and egregiously sin at times.

I never denied that "saved people sin". The original point of yours which I took exception to was the idea that our bodies are "saturated with sin" when, in fact, the Scripture shows that sin originates in the soul which is, in every human except One, tainted with sinful desires since the Fall.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I never denied that "saved people sin". The original point of yours which I took exception to was the idea that our bodies are "saturated with sin" when, in fact, the Scripture shows that sin originates in the soul which is, in every human except One, tainted with sinful desires since the Fall.

But our bodies are saturated in sin. That’s why it decays. Notice with Eve. She saw the fruit was good. The devil used that against her, then she used her body when she ate. Adam then ate and presto chango, look where we’re at now. Once they fell, that placed us all in sin and decay. The body dies as a result of sin, and so does the spirit if God doesn’t save.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I never denied that "saved people sin". The original point of yours which I took exception to was the idea that our bodies are "saturated with sin" when, in fact, the Scripture shows that sin originates in the soul which is, in every human except One, tainted with sinful desires since the Fall.

15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.[James 1]

Lust starts in the heart and it’s executed in the flesh, the body.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

But our bodies are saturated in sin. That’s why it decays. Notice with Eve. She saw the fruit was good. The devil used that against her, then she used her body when she ate. Adam then ate and presto chango, look where we’re at now. Once they fell, that placed us all in sin and decay. The body dies as a result of sin, and so does the spirit if God doesn’t save.

She was already under Satan's influence before that. She lied when she exaggerated the command of God--she said that God had told them they weren't even to TOUCH the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He never said that, He merely said that they were not to eat of it. Our bodies decay because of the sentence of death and "returning to the ground" from which Adam was taken. It is a wholly natural process after death--if it were not so, this planet would be awash with dead bodies. But that decay is offensive to God. That is why He did not permit His Holy One to experience decay.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.[James 1]

Lust starts in the heart and it’s executed in the flesh, the body.

No argument from me on that one.

 

[SovereignGrace]

She was already under Satan's influence before that. She lied when she exaggerated the command of God--she said that God had told them they weren't even to TOUCH the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He never said that, He merely said that they were not to eat of it. Our bodies decay because of the sentence of death and "returning to the ground" from which Adam was taken. It is a wholly natural process after death--if it were not so, this planet would be awash with dead bodies. But that decay is offensive to God. That is why He did not permit His Holy One to experience decay.

My point was pre-fall she 7 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.[Genesis 3] We see this same principle where 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.[James 1]

Adam and Eve were sinless in the Garden, but not infallible.

 

[SovereignGrace]

She was already under Satan's influence before that. She lied when she exaggerated the command of God--she said that God had told them they weren't even to TOUCH the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He never said that, He merely said that they were not to eat of it. Our bodies decay because of the sentence of death and "returning to the ground" from which Adam was taken. It is a wholly natural process after death--if it were not so, this planet would be awash with dead bodies. But that decay is offensive to God. That is why He did not permit His Holy One to experience decay.

I am still waiting on you to show me where it is okay for God to kill the innocent...AKA murder them. David wrote 25 I have been young and now I am old, Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken Or his descendants begging bread.Psalms 37] Yet it is okay for those who have never been forsaken by God because they have been justified, declared righteous before Him, for Him to slay them that are righteous.

Soooo, where are the verse or verses at my Sister?

 

[CoreIssue]

The question remains unanswered.

Since free will does not exists in God picks whose saved by his roll the dice what is the point of trying to convince others Calvinism is true?

By their theology it just doesn't matter.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Just once I'd like to see ppl defend God's glory like they do this mythical free will. Let an Arianist come on here and say the Christ is not God, but the Son of God, or a Modalist come on here and say God is in one of three modes instead of three Persons and little to no pushback happens. Then let someone come on here and say free will is a myth and watch them attack like a pack of crazed hounds.