How People are Saved; 3 historic views.

[Dave L]

Every Christian persuasion claims one of these positions in defining how salvation happens. The 1st is salvation by grace alone. The 2nd is a combination of grace and works. And the 3rd position is salvation by works alone. Notice all hear the same gospel only at different levels.

1) Salvation is by grace, and takes place through the new birth in the hearts of those who cannot believe or repent. This results in hearing the gospel at a spiritual level. And having faith in Christ from experiencing the witness of the Holy Spirit in the heart resulting in good works and holiness.

2) Salvation is partially by grace but depends on human response to the gospel, perceived by the flesh to be law. Obedience originates in the flesh and produces the new birth which aids in obedience and secures salvation which is conditioned on continued obedience.

3) Salvation is by obedience to the gospel, perceived to be law. People save themselves unaided by God, by following Christ's example.

 

[Helen]

That's about it!

 

[CoreIssue]

Every Christian persuasion claims one of these positions in defining how salvation happens. The 1st is salvation by grace alone. The 2nd is a combination of grace and works. And the 3rd position is salvation by works alone. Notice all hear the same gospel only at different levels.

1) Salvation is by grace, and takes place through the new birth in the hearts of those who cannot believe or repent. This results in hearing the gospel at a spiritual level. And having faith in Christ from experiencing the witness of the Holy Spirit in the heart resulting in good works and holiness.

2) Salvation is partially by grace but depends on human response to the gospel, perceived by the flesh to be law. Obedience originates in the flesh and produces the new birth which aids in obedience and secures salvation which is conditioned on continued obedience.

3) Salvation is by obedience to the gospel, perceived to be law. People save themselves unaided by God, by following Christ's example.

Trying to be sneaky are are you not?

Your point 1 is what you believe. That no one can believe or repent unless Christ first gives them the new birth. No freewill involved.

Why do Calvinists try these kinds of subterfuge?

 

[Dave L]

Trying to be sneaky are are you not?

Your point 1 is what you believe. That no one can believe or repent unless Christ first gives them the new birth. No freewill involved.

Why do Calvinists try these kinds of subterfuge?

This is an overview of each system stated clearly.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is an overview of each system stated clearly.

Clearly? No.

 

[Dave L]

Clearly? No.

I think it's as clear as I can make it for now. But hopefully I can make it more clear in time.

 

[CoreIssue]

I think it's as clear as I can make it for now. But hopefully I can make it more clear in time.

Calvinists do have a problem with clarity.

 

[Dave L]

Calvinists do have a problem with clarity.

That assumes all are skilled writers. I'm improving but need work.

 

[CoreIssue]

That assumes all are skilled writers. I'm improving but need work.

I was just helping you out.

 

[Helen]

This is an overview of each system stated clearly.

True. And I am in #1

 

[Enoch111]

Salvation is by obedience to the gospel, perceived to be law. People save themselves unaided by God, by following Christ's example.

You don't even know what obedience to the Gospel means, so how can you even attempt to define it? And you continue to BEAR FALSE WITNESS by saying "People save themselves unaided by God, by following Christ's example".

The Gospel is for THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH. Who says this? God through Paul: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Rom 16:25-27)

Since DaveL has no clue about this, he calls it "Salvation is by obedience to the gospel, perceived to be law". Which means that he is ignorant of this passage and its significance. So let's break this passage down into its components and see what Paul is saying to CONTRADICT people like Dave who have no clue.

1. Now to him that is of power to stablish you -- this is God Himself, who is not only able but does in fact establish Christians in their faith and walk.

2.according to my gospel -- what was Paul's Gospel?
(a) That Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, and that He tasted death for every man
(b) That God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
(c) that the essence of the Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ
(d) That obedience to the Gospel consists of (1) repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ

3. and the preaching of Jesus Christ -- Paul preached Christ and Him crucified, and provided the full doctrine of the Atonement. Paul also preached that since all men are sinners, and all are guilty before God, Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

UNLIMITED ATONEMENT
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Rom 5:18)

NECESSITY OF OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (Rom 5:15)
[Note: Not "all" as in the previous verse, but many -- those who obey the Gospel]

4. according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets -- What was this mystery? As Paul tells is in other Scriptures, it was the mystery of the Church -- all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body of Christ. Only those who are justified by grace through faith AND THEN REGENERATED are in the Body of Christ.

5. according to the commandment of the everlasting God -- What are the commandments of God which are to be obeyed as obedience to the Gospel?

COMMANDMENT TO REPENT
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

COMMANDMENT TO BELIEVE ON HIS SON JESUS CHRIST
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 Jn 3:23)

6. made known to all nations for the obedience of faith -- so now we see that "the obedience of faith" is not obedience to the Law of Moses, but obedience to the Gospel. And Paul tells us that they have not all obeyed the Gospel. That would very well apply to some Calvinists who have no clue about these things.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

 

[Dave L]

You don't even know what obedience to the Gospel means, so how can you even attempt to define it? And you continue to BEAR FALSE WITNESS by saying "People save themselves unaided by God, by following Christ's example".

The Gospel is for THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH. Who says this? God through Paul: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Rom 16:25-27)

Since DaveL has no clue about this, he calls it "Salvation is by obedience to the gospel, perceived to be law". Which means that he is ignorant of this passage and its significance. So let's break this passage down into its components and see what Paul is saying to CONTRADICT people like Dave who have no clue.

1. Now to him that is of power to stablish you -- this is God Himself, who is not only able but does in fact establish Christians in their faith and walk.

2.according to my gospel -- what was Paul's Gospel?
(a) That Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, and that He tasted death for every man
(b) That God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
(c) that the essence of the Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ
(d) That obedience to the Gospel consists of (1) repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ

3. and the preaching of Jesus Christ -- Paul preached Christ and Him crucified, and provided the full doctrine of the Atonement. Paul also preached that since all men are sinners, and all are guilty before God, Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

UNLIMITED ATONEMENT
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Rom 5:18)

NECESSITY OF OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (Rom 5:15)
[Note: Not "all" as in the previous verse, but many -- those who obey the Gospel]

4. according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets -- What was this mystery? As Paul tells is in other Scriptures, it was the mystery of the Church -- all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body of Christ. Only those who are justified by grace through faith AND THEN REGENERATED are in the Body of Christ.

5. according to the commandment of the everlasting God -- What are the commandments of God which are to be obeyed as obedience to the Gospel?

COMMANDMENT TO REPENT
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

COMMANDMENT TO BELIEVE ON HIS SON JESUS CHRIST
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 Jn 3:23)

6. made known to all nations for the obedience of faith -- so now we see that "the obedience of faith" is not obedience to the Law of Moses, but obedience to the Gospel. And Paul tells us that they have not all obeyed the Gospel. That would very well apply to some Calvinists who have no clue about these things.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

God must save us before we can obey the gospel. But you turn it into a work of the flesh people must conjure up in order to save themselves. It is not only demeaning to them, it turns God into a bully who coerces obedience through threats and bribes.