Israel is the Church

[SovereignGrace]

Here is what I'm gathering from your above: When in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, that is the church. Lost Israel is another something...

Well of course, but we're all saved the same and gathered into ONE; John 11:52ff. We aren't all gathered into "two."

When any "of Israel" get saved, which is only in Christ, they too become part of his bride, the church. All OT saints who were regenerated are also in Christ and are his church. There is no distinction, yet you're making one. There aren't going to be two "neighborhoods" in heaven, just one.

Remember, Dispensationalists are uber literalists. The word ‘church’ isn’t found in the OT, so it wasn’t there during that economy. That same word is not found from Revelation 4——->19, so that means the Church isn’t there either.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Remember, Dispensationalists are uber literalists. The word ‘church’ isn’t found in the OT, so it wasn’t there during that economy. That same word is not found from Revelation 4——->19, so that means the Church isn’t there either.

Yep. For the record I used to be dispensationalist. I didn't know any better, plus those Left Behind book covers were mesmerizing.

 

[Dave L]

Yes. I recall going through all this in bible college. Too many problems. They tout themselves as the only ones who take Scripture literally, and asserted any other views were those of the lost. In other words those who see figurative usages are deemed unsaved. Amil equalled unsaved. Being dispy equalled "Hallelujah, amen and amannnnnnnnnnn!"

In fact, a brother of mine recently told me that an SDA must be saved because he's a dispy and how surprised he was. I told him it isn't about ones eschatology, it is about ones Christ. He quickly tried to agree to cover himself, but in my opinion he'd already buried himself and needs to come clean. But, I said nothing, God will work on him.

I'm glad you studied this at college level. Most of my studies were based on trying to escape the framework that forces a false interpretation on scripture.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Have you ever settled on an eschatological camp yet @Preacher4Truth?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I'm glad you studied this at college level. Most of my studies were based on trying to escape the framework that forces a false interpretation on scripture.

A few other guys and myself were put into a private study and essay writing on Blaising and Bock's "Progressive Dispensationalism" a new book that came out.

I saw them both pushing a bit of ecumenism and my professor took issue with me on that and said no need to get into an "emotional argument!" He seemed to hold that grudge as he was the only one of several to slam my preaching during a college preaching tournament. He told me "You were up there preaching to preacher's!!" I said "Exactly, and I am one, plus that's the audience that was here." I preached 2 Timothy 2, about preacher's to preacher's.

One dare not touch Dallas Theological Seminary...*tsk* *tsk*

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Have you ever settled on an eschatological camp yet @Preacher4Truth?

Nope. I need to get that book you showed me though. I figure it will all pan out in the end, lolzzz.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nope. I need to get that book you showed me though. I figure it will all pan out in the end, lolzzz.

Panmillennialism is not an eschatological group.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Panmillennialism is not an eschatological group.

It ain't? If not I'm forming a new eschatological cult. We need one to stir the pot.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It ain't? If not I'm forming a new eschatological cult. We need one to stir the pot.

Panmillennialists
Under
New
Knowledgeable
System

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nope. I need to get that book you showed me though. I figure it will all pan out in the end, lolzzz.

For $80 and $39.95 S&H we can make it a reality.

#Iaintcheap

 

[Preacher4Truth]

For $80 and $39.95 S&H we can make it a reality.

#Iaintcheap

Does that shipping include any place outside of your county?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Does that shipping include any place outside of your county?

It’s an extra $19.95 for another county in state, $79.95 to an outside state.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

It’s an extra $19.95 for another county in state, $79.95 to an outside state.

Uh.

I think I'll turn dispy again for that price.

 

[Dave L]

Nope. I need to get that book you showed me though. I figure it will all pan out in the end, lolzzz.

After years of study I settled in on a modified Amillennialsim. Modified in the sense that the church is not a State Church, or Visible Institution as with the Reformed, Lutherans and Catholics, but instead a spiritual body. If you follow Jesus' description of the Kingdom, there is no physical kingdom millennium possible in this present age. And all that is left is the age to come which is perfect and forever.

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

 

[prism]

No where in Scripture is there a concept called 'spiritual Israel', it's a bogus false concept pushed by those with a false agenda.

 

[prism]

These in the main, those in the Middle East and elsewhere shall remain anti-Christian, defiant of Christ to the end.

Are you saying Muslims and Arabs (who comprise the vast majority of the Middle East) will remain anti-Christian?

 

[Dave L]

No where in Scripture is there a concept called 'spiritual Israel', it's a bogus false concept pushed by those with a false agenda.

“That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring.” (Romans 9:8)

 

[prism]

“That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring.” (Romans 9:8)

Romans 9:6-8 KJV
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gee, are you very notorious at twisting Scripture and taking it out of context.
This passage is speaking of the true Israel, i.e. those who are of the lineage of Abraham-Isaac-Jacob AND believe. It is referring to natural Israel that are believers IOW, it’s remnant (Rom 11:4). ( IT HAS NO REFERENCE TO YOUR MYTHICAL “SPIRITUAL ISRAEL”.)

 

[tzcho2]

prism said: ↑
No where in Scripture is there a concept called 'spiritual Israel', it's a bogus false concept pushed by those with a false agenda.

“That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring.” (Romans 9:8)

That is no answer to prism's post. Why do Christians think they need to superimpose another meaning to scriptures & take the promises God made to Israel?
The scripture says by Israel's rebellion, God then gave the gentiles a way to become His children through Christ & be saved, to become what we call Christians was done in order to make the Jews jealous , not the other way around. Why do I see Christians acting judgmental & resentful of the Jews? and they will even go to the OT to the promises God made to Israel & superimpose "the church" over the word Israel, in every scripture where God makes blessings or promises to Israel & try to take these scriptures as word of faith statements, declaring those blessings for themselves. The Bible states that God does not change His mind, nor His promises. Those that think He does , do not know the heart of God. The scripture is clear, when the time of the gentiles is over, then the rapture, then the revealing of the AC, then Jacob's trouble-the Tribulation, the battle of Armegedon & the final conflict when Christ the Lord takes the victory.
The Lord God declared He is saving a remnant of the descendants of Abraham and btw, in the meantime, it is evident HE watches over Israel, protects Her because He gave this land to the Jews -much more then they currently have, btw. It is evident for all with eyes to see , the scriptures being fulfilled that He has blessed the nation of Israel and told the N, S, W, and E to release His people and He is calling them back in their land and promised when they return it will bloom for them and it has. Jerusalem is the place God declares His city. The Bible has almost 800 references to Jerusalem called the City of God. God calls Himself the God of the nation of Israel, and no other country has He put His name upon. Christians need to see the Jews as needing to recognize their Messiah , & evangelize to them, pray for them and not treat them with disdain & try to claim what God declared for Israel, that will not help to win souls for the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Dave L]

prism said: ↑
No where in Scripture is there a concept called 'spiritual Israel', it's a bogus false concept pushed by those with a false agenda.


That is no answer to prism's post. Why do Christians think they need to superimpose another meaning to scriptures & take the promises God made to Israel?
The scripture says by Israel's rebellion, God then gave the gentiles a way to become His children through Christ & be saved, to become what we call Christians was done in order to make the Jews jealous , not the other way around. Why do I see Christians acting judgmental & resentful of the Jews? and they will even go to the OT to the promises God made to Israel & superimpose "the church" over the word Israel, in every scripture where God makes blessings or promises to Israel & try to take these scriptures as word of faith statements, declaring those blessings for themselves. The Bible states that God does not change His mind, nor His promises. Those that think He does , do not know the heart of God. The scripture is clear, when the time of the gentiles is over, then the rapture, then the revealing of the AC, then Jacob's trouble-the Tribulation, the battle of Armegedon & the final conflict when Christ the Lord takes the victory.
The Lord God declared He is saving a remnant of the descendants of Abraham and btw, in the meantime, it is evident HE watches over Israel, protects Her because He gave this land to the Jews -much more then they currently have, btw. It is evident for all with eyes to see , the scriptures being fulfilled that He has blessed the nation of Israel and told the N, S, W, and E to release His people and He is calling them back in their land and promised when they return it will bloom for them and it has. Jerusalem is the place God declares His city. The Bible has almost 800 references to Jerusalem called the City of God. God calls Himself the God of the nation of Israel, and no other country has He put His name upon. Christians need to see the Jews as needing to recognize their Messiah , & evangelize to them, pray for them and not treat them with disdain & try to claim what God declared for Israel, that will not help to win souls for the kingdom of Heaven.

Circumcision made one a physical Jew and a physical member of Israel. When Christ abolished circumcision on the cross, there were no more physical Jews or physical Israel after that last generation died off. Those calling themselves by those names today are in fact gentiles with Jewish customs.