Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Dave L]

Where do you get this nonsense from? And don't say the Bible.

The 144,000 were from Israel; the innumerable multitude from all nations. Because of this comparison—144,000 from Israel on one hand, and an innumerable multitude of converts from among the Gentiles on the other—it seems clear that the 144,000 were converts from Israel, Israel in the literal sense of the word.

Ralph Woodrow. His Truth is Marching On.

 

[Dave L]

"broken off Jews"! That is quite hilarious.

When you cannot even describe these outstanding Jews properly, how in the world will you ever understand the Bible?

Jews = those who subscribe to Judaism. They are not a race. Today Judaism is an Antichrist religion denying Christ came in the flesh.

 

[bbyrd009]

So, if I am to understand you correctly, you are stating that in our walk with Christ, we can experience spiritual rapture....an experience of delight, rather than of physical removal. Is that correct?

rapture comports with the first, and "harpazo" with the second, yes.

Because, while I don't disagree that indeed, as we follow Christ we experience joy beyond anything else, I'm not sure that it is entirely honest to suggest that is what the passage is speaking of. To start with, the verses that speak of this 'rapture' compares those of us 'still living' with the dead Christians before us, and how they too will be 'raptured'. Are we to suppose that these dead faithful ones can still experience spiritual rapture?

now "harpazo" and the various roots xlated "rapture" are being conflated, so no.

That it can only happen at that moment in time? That we can only experience that spiritual rapture at that moment in time...when 'the trumpet sounds and Christ descends'?
I know you say you have given much thought to this, and I am not attempting to fight, but you are consistently dismissive of the idea of Christ's "return" and our catching up to him. So...I would ask you a few things...

hey, bam if you find "return" anywhere other than @ Return to Me, and I will return to you then I am open ok

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:14–18

So...with this passage, there is nothing here that suggests we're talking about spiritual feelings or our spiritual walk. We have categories...those who have fallen alseep in the Lord, and those of us who are left (in the Lord). We have a time period..."until the coming of the Lord", and we have an event..."the Lord will descend from heaven". Then actions and an order are described; the dead 'rise' first, then those Christians who are still alive and left at that period of time, they will also be 'caught up'. What makes us suppose it's a physical rapture and not a spiritual one? Because we're told it will be "in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"....two actual space and time locations.

Also, when speaking of this 'rapture', most people look to this passage:

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:50–55

We know Paul is speaking of the same event because of the reference to the 'dead being raised', then we too shall be. But this passage gives us a little more information than just who and when. It tells us there is a purpose to this 'twinkling' change, this meeting the Lord in the air event. It is done because flesh and blood...perishable, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. And when the dead have been 'refurbished' and those of us still alive have been given new, imperishable bodies that 'immortal', then death, that final enemy, will be defeated and no more.
I think one of my big questions to you is this: IF these verses are only speaking of a spiritual state...of embracing our faith to such a degree that all these 'end times' promises become realities now....how is it that death still reigns now? The clear promise in 1 Cor 15 is that Christ will return and put death, the final enemy down. And no matter how 'spiritually attuned' a Christian may be, they are still subject to death, are they not? So, in point of fact, when you see scripture speaking of the rapture being delight, it still cannot deliver you from that. However, I contend that the verses that speak of the Rapture promise exactly that.

well, then you might ask yourself why Scripture describes a diff sense of rapture than harpazo, but I'm sure we can at least agree that whatever the future holds generally speaking, no ones beliefs will change it any? And I am not here to change anyone's beliefs, and wouldn't want to inhibit any rapture believer from expressing their belief either, ok.

Imo it is spiritual death that is being referred to in literal terms, as There is only One Immortal, and you are not Him et al makes clear. The kingdom does not come by observation

You keep using this reference in regards to all the end times promises, but I cannot see the relevance, I'm sorry. When used in OT verses such as Zech 1:3 and Mal 3:7 it was being used in very much a OT way, where Israel had once again turned away from God. In the Old Covenant, when Israel broke it's promises, God would punish them by breaking off his blessings, as per the agreement. He would then send Prophets to remind them "return to me and I will return to you".
However, as promised, there came a New Covenant. Jesus, Son of God, came, as did the Holy Spirit. As a Christian we always have the Spirit within us and our relationship with God is completely different than the Old Covenant ways were. Christ is our intecessor, the Spirit our constant helper....why would he need to tell us 'return to me and I'll return to you', when part of the Trinity always dwells within us?
No...the promises we read in the NT for God's plans of the end of human history have nothing to do with our personal walk of faith and spiritual growth with God...it has everything to do with his ultimate plan that was there from before time that will lead to more glory for him.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Right; the 'rapture' belief is not a salvation issue.
But those who do expect to be removed may renounce their faith when what they have been taught, [indoctrinated] does not happen.
1 Peter 4:12 is very explicit: we will be tested. To be not ready to stand firm in our faith and to trust the Lord for His protection, will make it difficult and there may be some who will feel that God has reneged on them, so they will renounce Him.

Why would any true Christian "renounce his/her faith" if faith and salvation is a gift of God (which I believe it is). How can we ever undo faith and salvation, when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit? No matter what happens (or doesn't happen) we are His. This is well-covered in John chapter 6. When some of the Lord's Jewish audience left Him, after hearing His claim that He is the Bread from Heaven, Jesus asked His closest disciples: "Are you also going to leave? Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God'.” (John 6:68-69) Peter was proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah of Israel, the One who came to seek and to save Israel. Interestingly, Jesus affirmed that He had chosen all twelve Apostles but He noted that Judas did not believe and that he would betray Jesus.

 

[bbyrd009]

Rapturists are as old as Ragnarok I guess, it is doomsday thinking in a little miniskirt imo.

Harpazo is not xlated "rapture" anywhere!

 

[bbyrd009]

Jews = those who subscribe to Judaism. They are not a race. Today Judaism is an Antichrist religion denying Christ came in the flesh.

The Lord rebuke you dave, if the mods don't beat Him to it
you might review the forum rules ok

 

[bbyrd009]

At a certain point it becomes ok to ask a teacher to describe their experience of removing their right eye I think

imo that is like in the first five minutes, or as soon as they have made a deterministic statement...but really that would also be the reply too i guess huh. In my informal poll on that I have yet to have a determinist even acknowledge the exercise, not a single one. So I feel safe saying you will always get "my right eye hasn't offended me" or some deflection or other, "that is meant to be taken this way..." etc, from a determinist. Or at least I'm like 0 for 100...or 50 at least

 

[bbyrd009]

No matter what happens (or doesn't happen) we are His.

Ha but who is this "we" that you and Hitler are both apparently members of?

Many will cry Lord Lord

 

[Dave L]

The Lord rebuke you dave, if the mods don't beat Him to it
you might review the forum rules ok

Are you saying Judaism is not a religion? And that Jews are a race ( = racism)? If so, Christians and Muslims are a race.

“And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” (Acts 17:26)

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you saying Judaism is not a religion? And that Jews are a race ( = racism)? If so, Christians and Muslims are a race.

“And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” (Acts 17:26)

if you read the forum rules my objections will clarify dave, that's what I'm saying

but it should be obv that you open yourself to the same accusations, yes?

 

[Dave L]

if you read the forum rules my objections will clarify dave, that's what I'm saying

How do I violate them?

 

[bbyrd009]

How do I violate them?

better to ask a mod or maybe even read them I guess dave

 

[Dave L]

better to ask a mod or maybe even read them I guess dave

If you see something amiss in my posts, please point it out.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you see something amiss in my posts, please point it out.

a word to the wise is sufficient I guess, dave

 

[Dave L]

a word to the wise is sufficient, dave

Post it, I do not understand your point.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Ha but who is this "we" that you and Hitler are both apparently members of?

Many will cry Lord Lord

And you dare to talk about violating forum rules after comparing me to Hitler?? What is wrong with you?

 

[bbyrd009]

Post it, I do not understand your point.

you also did not read the rules dave, or we would not still be posting I guess
have a nice day ok

 

[Dave L]

you also did not read the rules dave, or we would not still be posting I guess
have a nice day ok

I don't think you have any rules that prohibit anything I've said to date.

 

[Dave L]

you also did not read the rules dave, or we would not still be posting I guess
have a nice day ok

I've read them. Have you?

 

[bbyrd009]

And you dare to talk about violating forum rules after comparing me to Hitler?? What is wrong with you?

Wadr when you made the same claims as him you did that all on your own?
I mean I can Quote Hitler making the same claims, so the Q maybe should be
"why do you make those claims?"