We really CAN'T answer some of these

[Kermos]

That won't be necessary. I have ALREADY posted that God does elect specific individuals for specific ministries or purposes, and that has been true since creation. Paul is a good example. Each of the apostles is another good example.

But God does NOT elect anyone for salvation or damnation, since that would violate both His character and His Gospel. Since God desires the salvation of all mankind, He commands all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your fatal assertion opposing the election of people by God to salvation is decimated by Lord Jesus and the Apostle John's writings.

Prior to John 15:16, the Apostle John last reported that the disciples were with Jesus, and after John 15:16 the Apostle John reports the subsequent movement of the disciples departing with Jesus to Gethsemane. The Apostle John does not report the 12 nor just the Apostles exclusively were with Jesus, no, rather the Apostle John did report the disciples were with Jesus at the time our Lord and Savior said "you did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16), and we know that the women followed Jesus, too. And what of the two disciples, Cleopas and his companion who were on their way to Emmaus from Jerusalem after the crucifixion - those two whom the Risen Lord Jesus intercepted and comforted? The Apostle John wrote that the disciples were with Jesus at the time John 15:16 was recorded.

By God's grace, for God's glory, some very important and relevant posts in this thread:

"The 'not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance' in 2 Peter 3:9 explained Post (in this thread)" contains valuable information, and there's no freewill nor choosing Lord Jesus in this passage.

For the explanation of "desires all men to be saved" in 1 Timothy 2:4, please see "Examination of "all" in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 in the Light of our Lord Jesus Post (in this thread)" and "The Apostle Paul does not indicate 'choose Jesus' nor freewill to salvation in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 Post".

Please see "Refutation of freewill/choice/human agency in Matthew 22:37 and Matthew 16:24 Post"

Please see "Predestination Means God Destined Beforehand Including Salvation Post (in this thread)" (along with the indepth examination of "The Hand of God upon His Creatures and all His Creation as spoken by Apostle Peter and Apostle John and Way companions recorded in Acts 4:28 Post (in this thread)") which remains true according to the Spirit! Man cannot choose Jesus, period, Jesus chooses men (John 15:16). Acknowledge Lord Jesus in all your ways, and He will make your path straight - do not be deceived by the teachings of men - trust in Him with all your heart - He is the door of the sheep. This is quoting Proverbs 3:5-6 and Matthew 7:13-14 and Matthew 22:37-40 and Luke 13:23-24 and John 10:7).

 

[Enoch111]

My beloved brother and Apostle Peter wrote to and of the Assembly of God "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance".

Peter was not speaking about people who were ALREADY saved, but the ones who should be saved -- all mankind. It would be ABSURD to tell Christians who are already saved and have already come to repentance that they must start all over again. So let's take a closer look at what Peter actually said (not what Calvinists wish he had said):

2 PETER 3
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So what is Peter telling us in this passage, which is addressed to Christians who have ALREADY repented and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?

1. The earth and its atmosphere are reserved for a supernatural fiery judgment which will cleanse both in order to prepare them for the New Heavens and the New Earth.

2. Even though the Lord had promised to return to earth and establish His righteousness throughout, the Lord is delaying this judgment because He is "longsuffering" -- inordinately patient with sinners, giving them every opportunity to repent. In the days of Noah He gave mankind 120 years. Since the ascension of Christ, He has given mankind over 2,000 years. That is evidence of His longsuffering.

3. Then Pater tells us that the reason for this longsuffering and delay is so that none (any = none) should perish (which includes eternal damnation) but that all should come to repentance. Those who read this letter from Peter had already been saved by grace. So Peter was speaking of the unsaved world. And this verse corresponds to what Paul told the unsaved Greeks in Athens: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

Unless God wanted all men everywhere to be saved, He would not command all men to repent, since repentance is essential for salvation. And these Scriptures thoroughly DEMOLISH Five Point Calvinism with its nonsense about Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.

 

[Kermos]

Peter was not speaking about people who were ALREADY saved, but the ones who should be saved -- all mankind. It would be ABSURD to tell Christians who are already saved and have already come to repentance that they must start all over again.
...snip

Lord Jesus said:

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

There is election indicated by the Lord Jesus, and again:

"For many are called, but few [are] elected." (Matthew 22:14)

And that's more election spoken by the Lord Jesus.

Back to 2 Peter 3:9. Your fixation on Calvinism is wrong. I am talking about Christianity, not Calvinism. As far as I can tell, you write about conquering Christianity, but in reality you missed the mark. In your 3rd point, you mistakenly limit the words of Peter. Peter indicates "not wishing for any to perish" in the perfect present tense such that the ones already saved are included and the lost to be found are indicated; furthermore, Peter indicated "all to come to repentance" with the infinitive as in "to be" thus again including the ones already saved as well as the lost to be found.

Despite your fatal teaching, the Truth is visible in that the "you" in 2 Peter 3:9 refers to the Assembly of God, including the ones already saved as well as the lost to be found.

These words of the Apostle Peter are in accord with the fact that man cannot choose Jesus because Jesus said so (John 15:16)! Jesus said the work of God is a person believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29)! The Sovereignty of God in part can be desribed as salvation is by God's grace for God's glory with the dead, poor, unworthy, wretched person that God chooses/elects being blessed by the Lord Jesus Christ to Life eternal in the power of God which the person can not resist nor desires to resist because the Spirit of the Living God brings about birth, belief, and actions of the person resulting in the scriptural fact that solely by the power of God the desires/will of the person are brought into accord and unity with God's will. Scripture reveals that it matters what people believe because it affects people's eternal destination.

As a reminder, here are important posts about Truth:

"The 'not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance' in 2 Peter 3:9 explained Post (in this thread)" contains valuable information, and there's no freewill nor choosing Lord Jesus in this passage.

For the explanation of "desires all men to be saved" in 1 Timothy 2:4, please see "Examination of "all" in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 in the Light of our Lord Jesus Post (in this thread)" and "The Apostle Paul does not indicate 'choose Jesus' nor freewill to salvation in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 Post".

Please see "Refutation of freewill/choice/human agency in Matthew 22:37 and Matthew 16:24 Post"

Please see "Predestination Means God Destined Beforehand Including Salvation Post (in this thread)" (along with the indepth examination of "The Hand of God upon His Creatures and all His Creation as spoken by Apostle Peter and Apostle John and Way companions recorded in Acts 4:28 Post (in this thread)") which remains true according to the Spirit! Man cannot choose Jesus, period, Jesus chooses men (John 15:16). Acknowledge Lord Jesus in all your ways, and He will make your path straight - do not be deceived by the teachings of men - trust in Him with all your heart - He is the door of the sheep. This is quoting Proverbs 3:5-6 and Matthew 7:13-14 and Matthew 22:37-40 and Luke 13:23-24 and John 10:7).

 

[Enoch111]

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

That was addressed to the apostles, who were definitely chosen specifically to be apostles (just like Paul). That does NOT teach Unconditional Election for salvation.

"For many are called, but few [are] elected." (Matthew 22:14)

And why is that? Because all are called but ALL WILL NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL: And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Those who do not obey the Gospel do not receive the "wedding garment" -- the robe of the imputed righteousness of Christ, given to those who believe. Once again, this has nothing to do with Unconditional Election for salvation.

Let's face it. Unconditional Election is HERESY because God offers salvation to all mankind.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Those who do not obey the Gospel do not receive the "wedding garment" -- the robe of the imputed righteousness of Christ, given to those who believe. Once again, this has nothing to do with Unconditional Election for salvation.

Nothing to do with Unconditional Election for salvation? What's this, <the imputed righteousness of Christ, given to those who believe> THAN <Unconditional Election for salvation>? What do you think "those" received God's gift of faith for? Since when does one get damned by believing through faith "the gift of God, not of yourselves"?!

 

[Kermos]

That was addressed to the apostles, who were definitely chosen specifically to be apostles (just like Paul). That does NOT teach Unconditional Election for salvation.
...snip

You try to limit the audience without scriptural proof! Prior to John 15:16, the Apostle John last reported that the disciples were with Jesus, and after John 15:16 the Apostle John reports the subsequent movement of the disciples departing with Jesus to Gethsemane. The Apostle John does not report the 12 nor just the Apostles exclusively were with Jesus, no, rather the Apostle John did report the disciples were with Jesus at the time our Lord and Savior said "you did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16), and we know that the women followed Jesus, too. And what of the two disciples, Cleopas and his companion who were on their way to Emmaus from Jerusalem after the crucifixion - those two whom the Risen Lord Jesus intercepted and comforted? The Apostle John wrote that the disciples were with Jesus at the time John 15:16 was recorded.

By your quote of Matthew 22:11-12, you seem to think that indicates freewill or ability to choose Jesus, yet you appear to fail to consider that the person referred to as friend by the King, that person "cast into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 22:13), that that person did not receive Lord Jesus' words, such as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Behold Wise King Jesus' words:

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." (John 12:48)

In reply to "who can be saved?", Lord Jesus said:

"With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)

Man has NO determination in salvation for with people this is impossible!

It is entirely God's domain as to whom is saved from the wrath of God to come!

 

[Enoch111]

Man has NO determination in salvation for with people this is impossible!

This statement TOTALLY IGNORES what is actually in the Bible. So now read and digest these Scripture and ponder on what they mean:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (Jn 3:36)

A Christian who blatantly contradicts Christ is asking for trouble. And that is exactly what you are doing. If man has "no determination in salvation" then we would not read over and over again "he that believeth" and "he that believeth not".

 

[marks]

But, Mark, Acts 4:28 has the sound of "hands on" as opposed to "hands off" because they said "Your hand". That sure sounds like active involvement with the creation by the Creator for he created the Heavens and the Earth and all that is in them.

Here is an account from The Book of Daniel which concerns the hand of God:

"But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever;
For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom endures from generation to generation.
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, 'What have You done'"
(Daniel 4:34-35)

Among so much said in the passage, please notice "no one can ward off His hand". Such an acknowledgement of God!

In Acts 4:28, they said "predestined to occur" which is the same as"determined beforehand". This directly references to "Your hand" thus conveying not a passive role but rather an active intervention in the affairs of men. Granted, the "Your purpose" conveys the predetermined outcome.

The words of Peter and John and all the Way companions convey both of these points:

- active involvement by God in who did what and when, where, why and how, all predetermined ("Your hand" in Acts 4:28).

- the predetermined outcome of sending Jesus "into that hornet's nest was sure to get Him killed" so to speak ("Your purpose" in Acts 4:28).

Peace,
Kermos

Hi Kermos,

So then these men would not have committed these sins but for the hand of God moving them to sin in such a way, do I understand correctly?

Much love!
Mark

 

[Kermos]

This statement TOTALLY IGNORES what is actually in the Bible. So now read and digest these Scripture and ponder on what they mean:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (Jn 3:36)

A Christian who blatantly contradicts Christ is asking for trouble. And that is exactly what you are doing. If man has "no determination in salvation" then we would not read over and over again "he that believeth" and "he that believeth not".

Enoch111, you blatantly contradict Christ, for as the Apostle Matthew recorded the disciples asking and Lord Jesus answering in this passage:

When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:25-26)

So, in summary, this is an accurate statement "Man has NO determination in salvation for with people this is impossible". The words of Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God, are clear on this matter.

Neither Mark 16:15-16 nor John 3:36 mention choosing for/towards Jesus nor freewill.

Both Mark 16:15-16 and John 3:36 mention "believeth" or as I prefer, just "believes", and Lord Jesus explained where belief/faith comes from, and here are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:29)

Jesus Christ said that a person believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God.

And, Jesus the Lord kept the same concept with His words:

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

"apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)

So, here are more of Lord Jesus' words about keeping Lord Jesus' words as well as not keeping Lord Jesus' words:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter]. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and [yet] it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell - and great was its fall."
(Matthew 7:21-27)

 

[Kermos]

Hi Kermos,

So then these men would not have committed these sins but for the hand of God moving them to sin in such a way, do I understand correctly?

Much love!
Mark

Hi Mark,

I did not write that, but I suspect that I know where you are headed with the question.

Did Satan enter Judas Iscariot? Yes (Luke 22:3)

Were Judas Iscariot's actions against the Christ prophesied? Yes (Psalm 41:9, Zechariah 11:12)

Did Satan get power over all Job had from God? Yes (Job 1:12) and then for more a second time (Job 2:6).

Did an evil spirit from the LORD terrorize King Saul? Yes (1 Samuel 16:14)

Did God have Prophet Isaiah record:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the YHWH do all these things"

Yes, and it's in Isaiah 45:7 .

Did God remove Ananias and Sapphira with terror from the Assembly of God? Yes (Acts 5)

With regard to the account in Acts 4 and specifically the Acts 4:28 passage, Peter and John and the companions said "Your Hand" referring to God's Hand. God knows the means to the end, but God makes sure we know that the Hand of God was involved.

With such a barrage, I would like to close with this.

Did God save Saul/Paul? Yes (Acts 9), Lord Jesus saved the Apostle Paul, and God reveals love!

In the promise of the resurrection,
Kermos

 

[marks]

Hi Mark,

I did not write that, but I suspect that I know where you are headed with the question.

Hi Kermos,

No, you did not write that. But I'm interested in how you answer.

So then these men would not have committed these sins but for the hand of God moving them to sin in such a way, do I understand correctly?

Was that a yes? Or a no?

Much love!
mark

 

[Kermos]

Hi Kermos,

No, you did not write that. But I'm interested in how you answer.



Was that a yes? Or a no?

Much love!
mark

Hi Mark,

I do not intend to answer yes or no. I addressed your question by pointing out scripture that indicates God's means to an end vary depending on God's good will.

Peace to you,
Kermos

 

[marks]

Hi Mark,

I do not intend to answer yes or no. I addressed your question by pointing out scripture that indicates God's means to an end vary depending on God's good will.

Peace to you,
Kermos

I understand. That's one of those hard questions.



For me, it's simple, no. God does not cause people to sin. By definition, sin is what God does not do.

Much love!

Mark

 

[Kermos]

I understand. That's one of those hard questions.



For me, it's simple, no. God does not cause people to sin. By definition, sin is what God does not do.

Much love!

Mark

Hi Mark,

Do you believe rhat God's Hand did not engage Pontius Pilate?

Because it's been a little while, here is the passage:

When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,
who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE,
AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS
THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND,
AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER
AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.'
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
(Acts 4:23-31)

Mark, that is such a powerfully majestic revelation from the Holy Spirit for Peter, John, and the companions "lifted their voices to God with one accord".

The Lord God created everything by God's good Will, for God's good pleasure.

"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." (NASB Revelation 4:11)

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (KJV Revelation 4:11)

Peace to you,
Kermos

 

[bbyrd009]

Ah, galileans, doing the free-will circle-jerk, ya
been there, huh?

This statement TOTALLY IGNORES what is actually in the Bible. So now read and digest these Scripture and ponder on what they mean:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (Jn 3:36)

A Christian who blatantly contradicts Christ is asking for trouble. And that is exactly what you are doing. If man has "no determination in salvation" then we would not read over and over again "he that believeth" and "he that believeth not".

Only you already know that "believeth" is not even what Scripture is saying there, in either of those places, as Scripture makes plain in other places, beliefs are irrelevant. Believe all you like, it will not save you, and Scripture does not anywhere even approach suggesting that all one need do is "believe" something in the way we define that now in order to be saved. It's crap. Sorry.

 

[quietthinker]

Why is it that the foolish virgins didn't know that the wise virgins couldn't give them any oil. I think it was because the page they were on didn't allow it.
Error cherished has a way of cancelling eye sight and hearing.

 

[Kermos]

Why is it that the foolish virgins didn't know that the wise virgins couldn't give them any oil. I think it was because the page they were on didn't allow it.
Error cherished has a way of cancelling eye sight and hearing.

A sobering sentiment!

With the oil representing the Holy Spirit, the parable (Matthew 25:1-13) illustrates God's exclusive dominion in pouring out God's Spirit to God's creatures since the 5 prudent virgins holding oil told the 5 foolish virgins lacking oil to try to obtain oil from the dealers. The five prudent virgins holding oil did not give the five foolish virgins any portion of oil.

Love warns.

Jesus was lifted up, as a warning signal so to speak (among so much more purpose), in Love (John 3:14, John 3:16).

Those that see not the mark of the warning signal are headed to destruction and gnashing of teeth.

Those that see and hear the warning are saved from the wrath of God by the atoning sacrifice in Love by Lord Jesus at the cross!

The 5 prudent virgins warned the 5 foolish virgins to obtain oil from the dealers, and the 5 prudent virgins warned in love, yet the 5 prudent virgins loved the bridegroom beyond measure so keeping their oil to be with the bridegroom had immeasurable value ("The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid [again]; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field." [Matthew 13:44]).

The parties in the parable:

The dealers represent God.

The bridegroom represents Lord Jesus coming on the clouds with glory (Matthew 24:30).

The five prudent virgins represent saved people.

The five foolish virgins represent damned people.

Talking to people already following Him, Lord Jesus unequivocally stated:

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (Luke 11:13)

It is not the man who wills or works, rather it is God Who saves from the wrath of God to come (Matthew 19:25-26, John 3:36, Romans 9:16)!

 

[Davy]

That won't be necessary. I have ALREADY posted that God does elect specific individuals for specific ministries or purposes, and that has been true since creation. Paul is a good example. Each of the apostles is another good example.

But God does NOT elect anyone for salvation or damnation, since that would violate both His character and His Gospel. Since God desires the salvation of all mankind, He commands all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

You can't answer my question obviously. And it's because you don't know enough about it from God's Word.

 

[Enoch111]

You can't answer my question obviously. And it's because you don't know enough about it from God's Word.

Since it is a dumb question the answer is of course Paul "fell to the earth" when Christ appeared to Him. He was neither struck down nor struck dumb. But he was certainly blinded. And this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Unconditional Election. And that's why an answer to this question was not necessary.

And to say that I don't know enough about it is as nonsensical as asking that question.

 

[Berserk]

Did you come up with an answer to #25?

First, if you must use Clint as your avatar, you really need to make sure that you share his attitude to modern praise choruses!

clint eastwood youtube praise choruses - Bing video

Second, Jesus answers Question #25 in John 3:17:
"God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him."

But by "the world" here Jesus can't mean each and every human, can He? I'm afraid He does:
"When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself (John 12;32)."

A: But doesn't 12:32 imply universal salvation?
B: No, if you die unsaved, you are eternally damned!
A: If so, doesn't that mean that Jesus' promise is false?
B. Um no, people are responsible for accepting or rejecting the Gospel.
A. But only a tiny percentage of people have even heard of the Gospel; and Jesus said He did not come to condemn the world.
So didn't Jesus really come to condemn most of the world, if the preincarnate Son was omniscient and foreknew that only a tiny number of people would respond to the Gospel?
B. So maybe they get their chance to respond to Christ after death.
A. Is that Scriptural? Now wait this post is getting wa-a-ay too liberal for me! Some questions just should not be asked!
B. So you don't even want to know whether the Bible teaches that God pursues the sinner even after death?
A. No, because that thought is heresy!
OK, live in your myopic little thought Ghetto then!
B. What a mean thing to say! I'm gonna report you to the mods!