We really CAN'T answer some of these

[bbyrd009]

Hello ByGrace,

The things that Lord Jesus said are crucial to Life. The parable is what He said (Matthew 25:1-13).

1) In verse 10, Jesus said "while they were going away to make the purchase" which indicates the five foolish virgins were in motion travelling away from the five prudent virgins to purchase, so there is no indication that five foolish virgins obtained oil in this verse. The verse concludes that the "door was shut" thus fulfilling the time of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24), and does this not indicate the lifting of the Holy Spirit during the millenium?

2) In verse 11, there is no stated indication by Jesus that the five foolish virgins had oil.

3) In verse 12, Jesus explained that the bridegroom said "Truly I say to you, I do not know you." The weight of those words further prove that the five foolish virgins did not have oil.

4) In verse 13, Jesus declared "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour" which is a profound statement culminating the parable that Jesus, God incarnate, described.

5) Respecting verses 12 and/or 13, the narrative you provide appears to insert quite a bit between verses 12 and 13, maybe you mean after verse 13 or maybe you mean somewhere else in the parable, I don't know. But, in verse 13, the warning and command occurs, "Be on the alert" which is truly awesome that God mercifully delivers such conclusive words about salvation!

In peace,
Kermos

and let's be honest, you likely have thousands of dollars tied up in this understanding you have now, yes?

Or see how it at least becomes pertinent to ask you if you ever, at any time, gave any money to those who taught you that? Tax-deductible, of course

 

[bbyrd009]

Our friend Dave like many Christians has only half the gospel, some believe in only the earthly phase of the kingdom (that heaven will be here on earth), while others believe only in the heavenly phase of the kingdom and that the earth is destined to destruction. The Scriptures however teach that there is to be Two Phases of the Kingdom an earthly phase and a heavenly phase.

And right in here is where we should maybe review what the pastor said as you were coming up out of your ritual bath I guess. Remember?

And it might um "pay" one to go ask him what he said while you were going under too maybe, and who knows we might even get to work in Paul's temporary "blindness" I guess. 10% chance maybe, as no one has yet replied to the first two thoughts.

Out of nine times so far. In a Christian forum. Even in threads about baptism, heck, mostly in baptism threads. Many claiming to be ordained even. So wadr if ordained ppl who make deterministic statements like they know everything are that easily shown to be naked...well, I'll let you finish that thought if you like

 

[Nancy]

Our friend Dave like many Christians has only half the gospel, some believe in only the earthly phase of the kingdom (that heaven will be here on earth), while others believe only in the heavenly phase of the kingdom and that the earth is destined to destruction. The Scriptures however teach that there is to be Two Phases of the Kingdom an earthly phase and a heavenly phase.

Thank you for the reply Harvest!
I did read your Two Phases of the Kingdom and will read it again as, I read it too fast but, I do agree with what I was able to process so far. I keep thinking of "The new Heaven and the New Earth" so, that says to me that indeed there will be 2 phases. I am not well read on the subject and, it seems complicated so...I will surely re-read your post.
Thanks again!
In Him,
nancy

 

[Nancy]

There are actually four views of the Gospel, the gospel according to Catholicism, according to Calvinism, according to Arminianism, and then there is the True Gospel, the gospel which the Apostle Paul was not ashamed.

This last gospel is that which the angels proclaim at the birth of our Lord, "good tidings and great joy to ALL men".

Sure seems those 3 are the main views and, Amen to the True Gospel! Too much confusion and division and,, I don't think it has to be that way but, I do believe it will remain like this until all is finished..

 

[Dave L]

Thank you for the reply Harvest!
I did read your Two Phases of the Kingdom and will read it again as, I read it too fast but, I do agree with what I was able to process so far. I keep thinking of "The new Heaven and the New Earth" so, that says to me that indeed there will be 2 phases. I am not well read on the subject and, it seems complicated so...I will surely re-read your post.
Thanks again!
In Him,
nancy

Dave supports his views with scripture, you and Harvest 1874 cannot.

 

[marks]

Hi Mark,

As I wrote, I answered your question by quoting scripture demonstrating that God uses various means to the end for God's good will. The answer is in scripture. Please see post number 328 above, Mark. It's exclusively scripture with scripture (about the crucifixion) with citations. Back to Acts 4, the scripture reads "Your Hand" referring to God's Hand, and I say God's Hand engaged Pontius Pilate.

Since I answered your original question again, now I ask you again, do you believe that God's Hand did not engage Pontius Pilate?

Peace to you,
Kermos

Kermos,

I have to ask myself, and then you . . . it seems clear what you think . . . but why do you hold back from saying it?

I won't mind answering any question you have for me, but I would like to settle this first.

It's a simple question. It can be a yes, it can be a no.

Do you think that God initiates sin to accomplish His purpose?

I answer no. And I don't see a single place in Scripture that teaches otherwise, and I see much in Scripture that reveals a Holy God. But can we get our cards on the table?

Much love!
Mark

 

[Kermos]

Kermos,

I have to ask myself, and then you . . . it seems clear what you think . . . but why do you hold back from saying it?

I won't mind answering any question you have for me, but I would like to settle this first.

It's a simple question. It can be a yes, it can be a no.

Do you think that God initiates sin to accomplish His purpose?

I answer no. And I don't see a single place in Scripture that teaches otherwise, and I see much in Scripture that reveals a Holy God. But can we get our cards on the table?

Much love!
Mark

Hello Mark,

I'm glad you wrote that it seems clear what I think by God's grace I think scripture. Scripture provides understanding, so thinking scripture matters!

As I previously indicated, I do not intend to answer your question with yes nor no. I addressed your question with scripture, and I wrote that the Holy, Holy, Holy God uses various means to ends for His Good Will. As far as I am concerned, Mark, I put my cards, so to speak using your colloquialism, on the table already.

I will provide even more scripture to address your question:

The record of Judas' betrayal of Jesus.

"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
(John 6:64)

During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon, to betray Him,
(John 13:2)

21 When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me."
22 The disciples [began] looking at one another, at a loss [to know] of which one He was speaking.
23 There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 So Simon Peter gestured to him, and said to him, "Tell [us] who it is of whom He is speaking."
25 He, leaning back thus on Jesus' bosom, said to Him, "Lord, who is it?"
26 Jesus then answered, "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, [the son] of Simon Iscariot.
27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."
28 Now no one of those reclining [at the table] knew for what purpose He had said this to him.
29 For some were supposing, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus was saying to him, "Buy the things we have need of for the feast"; or else, that he should give something to the poor.
30 So after receiving the morsel he went out immediately; and it was night.
(John 13:21-30)

Chronology is very important here. Early on, the Apostle John indicates that Jesus knew from the beginning who it was that would betray Him (John 6:64). As the crucifixion approached, the Apostle John records that the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot to betray Him (John 13:2). Jesus said to Judas Iscariot, "What you do, do quickly." which are very strong words (John 13:27). Do not forget the account of Job whom God granted to Satan power over Job (Job 1:12, Job 2:6).

1) The Son of God knew that Judas would betray Him before Judas betrayed Him.

2) The Son of God said "What you do, do quickly" to Judas after Judas received the morsel.

3) After receiving the morsel, Judas went out immediately.

That summarizes the relevant to our discourse record of Judas' betrayal of Jesus.

And, here's an important definition:

For clarity, the English word sin which is the Greek word hamartía, should also be defined.

Sin: not a part, missing the mark.

hamartía (a feminine noun derived from 1 /A "not" and 3313 /méros, "a part, share of") ? properly, no-share ("no part of"); loss (forfeiture) because not hitting the target; sin (missing the mark) (Strong's Greek: 266. ἁμαρτία (hamartia) -- a sin, failure).

Sin is "not a part" of God, and this makes perfect sense. For people, sin is "missing the mark" established by God, like missing the bull's eye of a target. Sin is when a person does not do as God commands whether ignorantly or not.

All this points to the fact that Holy Almighty God uses various means to an end according to His Good Will.

Now, I no longer intend to address your question any further, so I ask you again, do you believe that God's Hand did not engage Pontius Pilate?

If you will not address my question, then I suspect we are done.

Peace to you,
Kermos

 

[marks]

As I previously indicated, I do not intend to answer your question with yes nor no. I addressed your question with scripture, and I wrote that the Holy, Holy, Holy God uses various means to ends for His Good Will. As far as I am concerned, Mark, I put my cards, so to speak using your colloquialism, on the table already.

Hi Kermos,

Those various means including that God Causes people to sin. God forbid!!

God knows what people will do, and let's them do it.

God knew that Satan would attack Job, and God allowed it to happen. But did God attack Job? No. Did God force Satan to attack Job? No. Was God responsible for Satan's attack on Job? No. Was Satan wrong to attack Job? Yes. Was God wrong to allow Satan to attack Job? No. Was God the originator or author of this attack on Job? NO. Satan was.

I cannot understand why you remain unwilling to state yourself plainly, unless you know how wrong it sounds.

All this points to the fact that Holy Almighty God uses various means to an end according to His Good Will.

Yet God will never be unrighteous. Nor does He tempt men to sin. Never.

Now, I no longer intend to address your question any further, so I ask you again, do you believe that God's Hand did not engage Pontius Pilate?

If you refuse to proceed, then that's your choice. I wouldn't want to be saying that either.

About Pontius Pilate, I don't understand your question, did God's Hand "engage" Pontius Pilate? What does that mean, "Engage Pontius Pilate"?

Much love!
Mark

 

[bbyrd009]

Chronology is very important here

Ah, glad this came up, chronology is completely irrelevant in Scripture, which surely proceeds along a temporal axis. Not my idea, so google is prolly the better teacher there though. Ok bye

 

[bbyrd009]

Now, I no longer intend to address your question any further, so I ask you again, do you believe that God's Hand did not engage Pontius Pilate?

but you expect a yes or no answer, right

If you will not address my question, then I suspect we are done.

Peace to you,
Kermos

ha, what a maroon you are lol. Another fine addition to a room stuffed full of stuffed shirts already, neat. Why not just tell us where your altar is, we can bring gifts or something lol. Jesus already

I come here to read jokes from little Napoleon antichrists now, mostly

 

[icxn]

This is another that I would seek someone one-eyed to tell me their interp, but the foolish virgins are at the moment anyway shaping up to be those who sing When We All Get to Heaven I guess Helen.
@icxn if you have a word here that would be cool

Sorry for the late response, my donkey (body) had to work for his daily hay. Hay of course are the pleasures of our five bodily senses, which the five foolish virgins wasted their life satisfying (1 Corinthians 3:12). The oil on the other hand, which the wise virgins as lambs following the Lamb (Revelation 14:4-5) dedicated their life collecting, are works of mercy* that allow the lambs entrance into the marriage feast (Matthew 25:34-36). This oil is extracted when we yoke our donkey to the cross shaped wooden lever (image) of the oil press, which stands (the cross) for bodily labors undertaken for the sake of virtue (Galatians 5:24). Assisted by such labors, the mind (mill stone) can extract from the olives of scripture, I mean the fruit (instructions) collected from the Old and the New Testaments (Revelation 11:4), the oil that fattens the body of righteousness, fuels the flame of love for God and neighbor and sustains the light of knowledge.

This oil (works of mercy) can only be obtained in this life by sharing/multiplying the talents given to us by God, which is why the rich man’s merciful concern for his brothers had no value (Luke 16:27-28) and neither the last minute attempt of the five foolish virgins after the second resurrection of all (Revelation 20:11-15) and just before the final judgement. It’s not coincidental that the parable of the ten virgins, that of the talents and that of the final judgment are in the same chapter (Matthew 25). The midnight hour (Matthew 25:6), the settling of accounts (Matthew 25:19) and the second coming of Christ in glory (Matthew 25:31) speak of the same event.

_________
* Oil and mercy are the same word in Greek.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sorry for the late response, my donkey (body) had to work for his daily hay. Hay of course are the pleasures of our five bodily senses, which the five foolish virgins wasted their life satisfying (1 Corinthians 3:12). The oil on the other hand, which the wise virgins as lambs following the Lamb (Revelation 14:4-5) dedicated their life collecting, are works of mercy* that allow the lambs entrance into the marriage feast (Matthew 25:34-36). This oil is extracted when we yoke our donkey to the cross shaped wooden lever (image) of the oil press, which stands (the cross) for bodily labors undertaken for the sake of virtue (Galatians 5:24). Assisted by such labors, the mind (mill stone) can extract from the olives of scripture, I mean the fruit (instructions) collected from the Old and the New Testaments (Revelation 11:4), the oil that fattens the body of righteousness, fuels the flame of love for God and neighbor and sustains the light of knowledge.

This oil (works of mercy) can only be obtained in this life by sharing/multiplying the talents given to us by God, which is why the rich man’s merciful concern for his brothers had no value (Luke 16:27-28) and neither the last minute attempt of the five foolish virgins after the second resurrection of all (Revelation 20:11-15) and just before the final judgement. It’s not coincidental that the parable of the ten virgins, that of the talents and that of the final judgment are in the same chapter (Matthew 25). The midnight hour (Matthew 25:6), the settling of accounts (Matthew 25:19) and the second coming of Christ in glory (Matthew 25:31) speak of the same event.

_________
* Oil and mercy are the same word in Greek.

Cool, ty.

What do you make of "go and buy some oil from the vendors?"

 

[icxn]

Cool, ty.

What do you make of "go and buy some oil from the vendors?"

I take it to mean the impossibility of sharing the spiritual treasures we have collected on the day of judgement or even before. Abraham could not even share a cup of water with the rich man (Luke 16:26). I also take it as a reminder to go and buy some of this oil from the vendors while we have the time (today). Vendors are those who preach to us the word of God (they are branches of the olive tree), as well as the Lazaruses of the world. The former tell us how to be merciful and the latter provide us the opportunity to become merciful. The former nourish the inner Lazarus (the mind) with spiritual instructions, through the latter we nourish the heavenly Lazarus (Christ) in as much as "what you did to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." (Matthew 25:40)

 

[Kermos]

Hi Kermos,

Those various means including that God Causes people to sin. God forbid!!

God knows what people will do, and let's them do it.

God knew that Satan would attack Job, and God allowed it to happen. But did God attack Job? No. Did God force Satan to attack Job? No. Was God responsible for Satan's attack on Job? No. Was Satan wrong to attack Job? Yes. Was God wrong to allow Satan to attack Job? No. Was God the originator or author of this attack on Job? NO. Satan was.

I cannot understand why you remain unwilling to state yourself plainly, unless you know how wrong it sounds.



Yet God will never be unrighteous. Nor does He tempt men to sin. Never.



If you refuse to proceed, then that's your choice. I wouldn't want to be saying that either.

About Pontius Pilate, I don't understand your question, did God's Hand "engage" Pontius Pilate? What does that mean, "Engage Pontius Pilate"?

Much love!
Mark

Hi Mark,

It appears you are as fond of the word "engage" as I am of "initiate" - as we used them. I would like to put more cards on the table. I would like to suggest that we stick with scripture, questions can get sticky. With that being written, I think we can initiate a new phase of this conversation, and we can engage in meaningful dialog.

I noticed that you commented on Job rather than Judas. I did not intend for Job to be the focus, rather as support because of God's verbal interaction with Satan, and how the verbal interaction affected Job.

Despite any contrary unfounded claims about chronology, after all, Jesus Christ came at the right time (Romans 5:6) I suspect you would agree that chronology is important. We find this chronological sequence in these three passages John 6:64, John 13:2, and John 13:21-30 :

1) The Savior from the wrath to come knew that Judas would betray Savior and Lord Jesus before Judas betrayed Jesus.

2) The Savior from the wrath to come said "What you do, do quickly" to Judas after Judas received the morsel.

3) After receiving the morsel, Judas went out immediately.

That "What you do, do quickly" is a very big thing for our dialog.

People start biological life dead in sin (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, Ephesians 2:1), none are righteous (Romans 3:10), yet we believers become the righteousness of God in Jesus (Matthew 6:33, 2 Corinthians 5:21).

God is righteous (Genesis 15:6, Psalm 11:7, 1 John 2:1). God is Light (John 1:4). God is Love (1 John 4:8). God is the Way (John 14:6). God is Truth (John 14:6). God is Life (John 14:6). Sin has no part in God. Since God is all these things, anything God does is righteous.

It is not for the created to shake a fist while crying at the Creator "why have you made me this way?" (Daniel 4:34-35, Romans 9:20-24). God does according to His Good Pleasure with His creation (Revelation 4:11).

If we return to Acts 4:19-31, in Acts 4:27-28, we find Peter, John, and the Way companions praying "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." The said "Your purpose", but to be complete, we must acknowledge that they said "Your hand" also; therefore, the Hand of God had to be involved, and because "Your hand" carries an intimate sense.

Mark, that is two accounts in this post outlining God's intimate involvement, but even after writing the above, I still write that God has various means to achieve His ends. I have no desire to speculate. Interpretation belongs to the Holy Spirit. I thank God for His revelation. The Word of God be glorified!

Peace to you,
Kermos

 

[marks]

Hi Mark,

It appears you are as fond of the word "engage" as I am of "initiate" - as we used them. I would like to put more cards on the table. I would like to suggest that we stick with scripture, questions can get sticky. With that being written, I think we can initiate a new phase of this conversation, and we can engage in meaningful dialog.

I noticed that you commented on Job rather than Judas. I did not intend for Job to be the focus, rather as support because of God's verbal interaction with Satan, and how the verbal interaction affected Job.

Despite any contrary unfounded claims about chronology, after all, Jesus Christ came at the right time (Romans 5:6) I suspect you would agree that chronology is important. We find this chronological sequence in these three passages John 6:64, John 13:2, and John 13:21-30 :

1) The Savior from the wrath to come knew that Judas would betray Savior and Lord Jesus before Judas betrayed Jesus.

2) The Savior from the wrath to come said "What you do, do quickly" to Judas after Judas received the morsel.

3) After receiving the morsel, Judas went out immediately.

That "What you do, do quickly" is a very big thing for our dialog.

People start biological life dead in sin (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, Ephesians 2:1), none are righteous (Romans 3:10), yet we believers become the righteousness of God in Jesus (Matthew 6:33, 2 Corinthians 5:21).

God is righteous (Genesis 15:6, Psalm 11:7, 1 John 2:1). God is Light (John 1:4). God is Love (1 John 4:8). God is the Way (John 14:6). God is Truth (John 14:6). God is Life (John 14:6). Sin has no part in God. Since God is all these things, anything God does is righteous.

It is not for the created to shake a fist while crying at the Creator "why have you made me this way?" (Daniel 4:34-35, Romans 9:20-24). God does according to His Good Pleasure with His creation (Revelation 4:11).

If we return to Acts 4:19-31, in Acts 4:27-28, we find Peter, John, and the Way companions praying "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." The said "Your purpose", but to be complete, we must acknowledge that they said "Your hand" also; therefore, the Hand of God had to be involved, and because "Your hand" carries an intimate sense.

Mark, that is two accounts in this post outlining God's intimate involvement, but even after writing the above, I still write that God has various means to achieve His ends. I have no desire to speculate. Interpretation belongs to the Holy Spirit. I thank God for His revelation. The Word of God be glorified!

Peace to you,
Kermos

All of this, to avoid answering a couple of simple questions. Or shall I say, to avoid engaging my questions.

Hm.

 

[marks]

Again, not to be guilty of dodging answers, though in no wise wishing to reward those who do, just the same . . .

God purposed that His Son be murdered. He found a city full of murders, and sent Him in, declaring to them their crime. They murdered Him.

Mission accomplished.

The murderers are guilty, not God.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Kermos]

All of this, to avoid answering a couple of simple questions. Or shall I say, to avoid engaging my questions.

Hm.

Hello Mark,

You are sorely mistaken. All of this to show God's power - by God's grace, for God's glory!

We find this important chronological sequence in these three passages John 6:64, John 13:2, and John 13:21-30 :

1) The Savior from the wrath to come knew that Judas would betray Savior and Lord Jesus before Judas betrayed Jesus.

2) The Savior from the wrath to come said "What you do, do quickly" to Judas after Judas received the morsel.

3) After receiving the morsel, Judas went out immediately.

That "What you do, do quickly" is a very big thing for our dialog.

People start biological life dead in sin (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, Ephesians 2:1), none are righteous (Romans 3:10), yet we believers become the righteousness of God in Jesus (Matthew 6:33, 2 Corinthians 5:21).

God is righteous (Genesis 15:6, Psalm 11:7, 1 John 2:1). God is Light (John 1:4). God is Love (1 John 4:8). God is the Way (John 14:6). God is Truth (John 14:6). God is Life (John 14:6). Sin has no part in God. Since God is all these things, anything God does is righteous.

It is not for the created to shake a fist while crying at the Creator "why have you made me this way?" (Daniel 4:34-35, Romans 9:20-24). God does according to His Good Pleasure with His creation (Revelation 4:11).

If we return to Acts 4:19-31, in Acts 4:27-28, we find Peter, John, and the Way companions praying "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." The said "Your purpose", but to be complete, we must acknowledge that they said "Your hand" also; therefore, the Hand of God had to be involved, and because "Your hand" carries an intimate sense.

Mark, that is two accounts in this post outlining God's intimate involvement, but even after writing the above, I still write that God has various means to achieve His ends. I have no desire to speculate. Interpretation belongs to the Holy Spirit. I thank God for His revelation. The Word of God be glorified!

Peace to you,
Kermos

 

[Kermos]

Again, not to be guilty of dodging answers, though in no wise wishing to reward those who do, just the same . . .

God purposed that His Son be murdered. He found a city full of murders, and sent Him in, declaring to them their crime. They murdered Him.

Mission accomplished.

The murders are guilty, not God.

Much love!
Mark

Hi Mark,

You conspicuously try to remove God's hand out of Acts 4:28 inside of your incomplete restatement thus you try to change the meaning to suit your theology of freewill/choosing Jesus instead of the words according to Peter, John, and the companions!

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Acts 4:27-28)

God does not tempt, God commands!

Pontius Pilate was guilty of sin.

The religious leaders were guilty of sin.

The Holy God is eternally righteous!

See the Truth,
Kermos

 

[Hisman]

Cool, ty.

What do you make of "go and buy some oil from the vendors?"

I am glad that you looped him in. And are asking these questions. Thank you.

 

[Hisman]

I take it to mean the impossibility of sharing the spiritual treasures we have collected on the day of judgement or even before. Abraham could not even share a cup of water with the rich man (Luke 16:26). I also take it as a reminder to go and buy some of this oil from the vendors while we have the time (today). Vendors are those who preach to us the word of God (they are branches of the olive tree), as well as the Lazaruses of the world. The former tell us how to be merciful and the latter provide us the opportunity to become merciful. The former nourish the inner Lazarus (the mind) with spiritual instructions, through the latter we nourish the heavenly Lazarus (Christ) in as much as "what you did to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." (Matthew 25:40)

Thank you, I like that.