The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Phoneman777]

So, Ramses had a nickname, huh
"Tutmoses III - not Ramses who is so often identified as the Pharaoh of the Exodus by those who reject the historicity of the Bible "
Yes, and I would include Hollywood in that too.
Ha, the "fake mummy" "like at the bottom of the Red Sea?"...me tinx you could be right, espec. looking at the time period between him and Moses.

I don't know if you're into docs but "The Spade Unearths The Truth" is a really great one which deals with Egyptology, as well as other issues in archaeology which confirm the claims of the Bible:

 

[Preacher4Truth]

All who come to faith in Christ have their sins forgiven. All who reject the gospel obviously will not have their sins forgiven. Christ's sacrifice is more than enough to pay for the sins of all who come to Him.

Yes, I agree with this because all that come were drawn, John 6:44; John 6:65, were given; John 6:37 and were chosen to by God; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; 1 Thessalonians 1:4. Soli Deo Gloria! None of his ultimately reject the Gospel, as he grants them faith; 2 Peter 1:1, and brings each to repentance; 2 Peter 3:9. A glorious truth in John 6:44 is that all who are drawn will be also raised on the last day, in this we can rejoice!

 

[Dave L]

Sovereign Grace, Anthony D'Arienzo, Preacher4Truth, Dave L, I'm sure you all agree the word "all" in this verse refers to every person since Adam:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" - Romans 5:12​

So, why insist that "all" means "a select few of Adam's descendants" just six verses later?

"Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life." - Romans 5:18​

The catch is, All in Adam vs All in Christ.

 

[Nancy]

I don't know if you're into docs but "The Spade Unearths The Truth" is a really great one which deals with Egyptology, as well as other issues in archaeology which confirm the claims of the Bible:

Love Documentary's, I will have to come back to this vid later though. It sounds very interesting and, thanks for sharing!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Sovereign Grace, Anthony D'Arienzo, Preacher4Truth, Dave L, I'm sure you all agree the word "all" in this verse refers to every person since Adam:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" - Romans 5:12​

So, why insist that "all" means "a select few of Adam's descendants" just six verses later?

"Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life." - Romans 5:18​

Brother, context dictates of whom the word "all" refers. In that text, it is speaking of the fall of mankind, otherwise, we'd have some who were not fallen and were not sinful. (Believe it or not I know of one person who believes some are not fallen, and uses a verse to "prove" it.)

Paul is making his argument that all outside of Christ are lost. He has contrasted the state of those in Adam, of which all are at one point or another, note Ephesians 2:3, and of those who are now in Christ, to whom he is speaking.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Of it's not, then you're arguing against God's omnipotence. Since sufficient scripture exists to establish the fact that God does desire ALL to be saved, the only logical answer as to why not all come to the cross to be saved must be attributed to a human failing; failure to obey and believe on the gospel.

None have the ability to come to Christ, he stated this concisely, and for reason at many points. Note Ephesians 2:1, and especially Ephesians 2:4... "But God..."

If we follow your logic above consistently, just as you blame man for not choosing, or what have you, you end up glorying in man because some did. Since this is the end result, your thinking and gospel understanding are errant and man-centered.

This is, of course, contrary to the Gospel.

Again, note carefully 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Soli Deo Gloria.

 

[Phoneman777]

The catch is, All in Adam vs All in Christ.

That interpretation destroys the Chiasm. The correct interpretation that in both cases "all men" refers to "all the inhabitants of the Earth" leaves the Chiasm intact.

 

[Dave L]

That interpretation destroys the Chiasm. The correct interpretation that in both cases "all men" refers to "all the inhabitants of the Earth" leaves the Chiasm intact.

Not really, Paul explains; “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:22)

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That interpretation destroys the Chiasm. The correct interpretation that in both cases "all men" refers to "all the inhabitants of the Earth" leaves the Chiasm intact.

Flawed as then the text would mean all are in Adam and all are in Christ. Plainly this portion of Romans is written to the converted, and Paul is making arguments and contrasts in the text.

I would suggest you find a commentary that supports your belief and quote it here, that is, that each "all" refers to every single person ever.

 

[Phoneman777]

Brother, context dictates of whom the word "all" refers. In that text, it is speaking of the fall of mankind, otherwise, we'd have some who were not fallen and were not sinful. (Believe it or not I know of one person who believes some are not fallen, and uses a verse to "prove" it.)

Paul is making his argument that all outside of Christ are lost. He has contrasted the state of those in Adam, of which all are at one point or another, note Ephesians 2:3, and of those who are now in Christ, to whom he is speaking.

I can claim "subjective reasoning" on your part just as easily as you claim "out of context" on mine. However, what settles the issue is Hebrew Chiastic Structure. It exposes the flaw of Jesuit Futurism, which is why Jesuit Futurists ignore it.

In this case, a blind man can see the chiasm at work here: Paul goes back and forth, contrasting a problem and the solution - the problem introduced by the first Adam was "universal condemnation" so the solution provided by the Second Adam must be universal, as well.

The very idea of a "first Adam" and "Second Adam" alone is enough to establish that the solution provided by the One is intended to resolve the problem and resulting consequences caused by the other. However, if the problem is universal - "death passed upon all men" - the chaism demands the solution be universal, as well - "all men unto justification of life"...unless we ignore the chiasm too.

 

[Phoneman777]

Not really, Paul explains; “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:22)

Calvinists unfortunately have the dubious distinction of being aligned with atheist communist leftists in that both groups refuse to acknowledge man's inherent "freedom of choice", and both seem to want to only recognize that "inequality of opportunity" is always the cause of "inequality of outcome", when there is also another, far more common cause: "failure to improve opportunity".

Nobody is going to be consigned to hell for their sin, for "all have sinned" - they'll be there because provision was made for their deliverance at Calvary, but they failed to take advantage of the opportunity to be delivered.

 

[Dave L]

Calvinists unfortunately have the dubious distinction of being aligned with atheist communist leftists in that both groups refuse to acknowledge man's inherent "freedom of choice", and both seem to want to only recognize that "inequality of opportunity" is always the cause of "inequality of outcome", when there is also another, far more common cause: "failure to improve opportunity".

Nobody is going to be consigned to hell for their sin, for "all have sinned" - they'll be there because provision was made for their deliverance at Calvary, but they failed to take advantage of the opportunity to be delivered.

Here's how it works. Free will only reacts to conditions God uses to control us. In this way you have free will and choose what you want. But God controls your choice by providing the reasons you base your choices on.

 

[Phoneman777]

Flawed as then the text would mean all are in Adam and all are in Christ. Plainly this portion of Romans is written to the converted, and Paul is making arguments and contrasts in the text.

I would suggest you find a commentary that supports your belief and quote it here, that is, that each "all" refers to every single person ever.

I can play that game too.

Only an insane or idiotic person will deny that "all men" in the phrase "death passed to all men" refers to the entire human race since Adam, right or wrong?

Therefore, since "the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life", Calvinism must be abandoned for Universalism, right or wrong?

 

[Phoneman777]

Here's how it works. Free will only reacts to conditions God uses to control us. In this way you have free will and choose what you want. But God controls your choice by providing the reasons you base your choices on.

Can you hear yourself? We have free will but God controls us. That's like a woman being both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time.

 

[Dave L]

Can you hear yourself? We have free will but God controls us. That's like a woman being both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time.

Here's an example;

A simple story about sovereignty and free will.

A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid hops on the wagon, ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in to the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat wants to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and now the goat both choose to travel.

People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God sends and controls the reasons they base their choices on.

London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession:Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;

“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

 

[friend of]

If we follow your logic above consistently, just as you blame man for not choosing, or what have you, you end up glorying in man because some did. Since this is the end result, your thinking and gospel understanding are errant and man-centered

No, there is no glorifying man for making a decision. Rather, God is glorified althemore by a creation endowed with the ability to acknowledge or resist His glory, freely. Love toward the creator on part of the creature is not something that can be forced, lest it be not Love at all. The Calvinistic notion of Soli Deo Gloria is merely God sitting on His throne telling Himself how great He is. The true Soli Deo Gloria is God sitting on His throne in the midst of a creation that desires worshipping and serving Him out of genuine Love and reverence for His greatness, freely.

The latter is far more glorious.

 

[friend of]

Again, note carefully 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Soli Deo Gloria.

What is the purpose of posting this particular scripture?

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't know if you're into docs but "The Spade Unearths The Truth" is a really great one which deals with Egyptology, as well as other issues in archaeology which confirm the claims of the Bible:

Unfort I guess the literal claims of Exodus are pretty obviously not literal, a million-man exodus would leave an archeological record. Not saying that an Exodus did not occur tho

 

[Laish]

Can you hear yourself? We have free will but God controls us. That's like a woman being both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time.

Or something as silly as creating everything out of nothing .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Preacher4Truth]

What is the purpose of posting this particular scripture?

Did you read it?