The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Laish]

Of it's not, then you're arguing against God's omnipotence. Since sufficient scripture exists to establish the fact that God does desire ALL to be saved, the only logical answer as to why not all come to the cross to be saved must be attributed to a human failing; failure to obey and believe on the gospel.

What about the more than the 1/3 of the worlds population that have never heard of the biblical Jesus or the gospel? Who’s failing is to blame ? Is it ours for not getting to them ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[friend of]

What about the more than the 1/3 of the worlds population that have never heard of the biblical Jesus or the gospel? Who’s failing is to blame ? Is it ours for not getting to them ?
Blessings
Bill

Forgive me, but I'm not going to claim I hold the answer to this ancient question. In a sense we are held responsible as it is our duty to preach the gospel. Ezekiel 3:18

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Those who believe are the elect.

2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Why would Paul be forced to "endure" anything that the elect "may" obtain salvation? This verse reveals that an interaction with the gospel is required on our part.[/quopte]

Nothing in the text asserts Paul was forced, you're adding to the text. Furthermore nowhere have I implied. nor do I believe any are saved outside the Gospel, preaching. In fact, the very text I supplied you supported the fact that Gospel preaching is of necessity. Not sure how your coming up with your straw man arguments and false assertions, but it is clear that is what you're doing. Why not try actually listening instead of hearing things never stated.

You see what the problem is? You have your own ideas and read them into what a person says when they are not there.

Well, you just did the same thing with my scripture, honestly. ALL means ALL. Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. It does not say He only died for the sins of the elect, now does it?

Yes, all means all, and context restricts the meaning, as with the balance of Scripture. This isn't only true in Scripture, but in all situations in general as well. You should be aware of this but it appears you're not even aware of this rudimentary fact.

The problem with your understanding here is a misconstruing of the Gospel message itself. You need to get some study helps to assist your learning, as you are amiss.

Jesus offered up once for all his perfect sacrifice, which paid a debt owed to God for sin; note Hebrews 10:14-24.

Let that sink in: a debt was paid to God the Father, so, the debt was settled. That's a fact. The debt was paid in full. He did this to save his people from their sins; Matthew 1:21. This was not for the world at large as you falsely assert. There can much more be said on this, but I digress here.

In your gospel their are perhaps persons in hell who love God, want to be in heaven, and God is in love with them too, and accepted the sacrifice of His Son for their debt as "paid in full" yet sent them to hell to pay a debt already paid. All because they didn't do something, usually "choose themselves into heaven and were rewarded eternal life for this act" yet you would contrary to this preach there is no salvation by works.

It is really absurd, to be honest, that many see God as knowing all who would vote for him, then deciding to save them, while at the same time paying the debt of the sins of every single person ever.

Frankly, it's foolish and is not the Gospel of Christ as revealed in Scripture. It is a man-made concoction that has been in the church for some 150 years or so and is false, leading many to false hope.

Well, you can't have it both ways: it, salvation, is all 100% of God,;1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Faith and repentance are evidence of conversion, not the cause, and no man is saved by choosing anyhow; John 1:13; 2 Peter 1:1; James 1:18 &c. And you can't come to God unless it had been granted, and all are unable to do so. Read John 6.

The Father accepted the payment. Man thinks he accepts it, but he doesn't, it's been accepted by God. The elect believe. "Whole world" means not just the Jews, but for the elect in every nation scattered abroad; John 11:52. This was astounding to the Jew, thus the language "whole world" meant not just them, but all nations, not each and every single person.

Again, as you avoided the texts I've supplied, and snipped them off conveniently, I ask you yet again: What studies do you use? You have lots of learning to do, you need to implement some godly men in your study, as you are amiss in your gospel knowledge. Please be courteous and answer my questions as I've with courtesy answered you.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Forgive me, but I'm not going to claim I hold the answer to this ancient question. In a sense we are held responsible as it is our duty to preach the gospel. Ezekiel 3:18

Ezekiel 3:18 isn't about eternal salvation at all, so, you've misused Scripture here; 2 Timothy 2:15. If it were, then salvation is by works, by doing something, like repenting. Yet salvation isn't of works, it's by grace. By this simple reasoning and understanding of the Gospel, what you are saying is in fact error. I don't say this to offend, but to correct.

 

[friend of]

@Preacher4Truth

I think you wrapped your response into the quote you took of me. I'll happily look at it when you edit. Atm it's kinda confusing to read and I gotta concentrate atm. Bbl

 

[friend of]

Ezekiel 3:18 isn't about eternal salvation at all

I never said it was.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I never said it was.

Nope. You implied it by your usage and context of this discussion as it clearly is about Gospel preaching and eternal salvation. You're now crossing over to being disingenuous at the least, if not worse. Come on, stay honest, OK,?

 

[Phoneman777]

PS: As God already knew Pharaohs heart would be hardened (even the word tells us that he himself hardened his heart) Being the Divine Potter, He basically molded/hardened Pharaohs heart further to show His Awesomeness by parting the Red Sea and seeing as vengeance is His...He took vengeance for His chosen people. So, it just seems logical that Pharaoh had a choice to make and
didn't God actually give him "choices" to make? I do not see God playing games with us by, asking us to humble ourselves yet, not give the where withal to do so.
God Bless!
nancy

Agreed. The sun hardens clay but melts butter. The heart of Pharaoh was of such substance that hardened when coming in contact with the Potter. And why not? According to Biblical chronology, he was "Tutmoses III" (not Ramses) aka "the Napoleon of Egypt" - the mightiest of all the ancient Pharaohs. Also, he was the most devout in his Satanic religion, having personally supervised the compilation of the occult masterpiece, "The Book of the Dead", that ancient Luciferian Bible. It's no wonder that even in midst of overwhelming defeat the night before the Exodus, he STILL refused to withdraw his devotion from his Egyptian gods who were proved helpless to save even his own firstborn. And that hardness of his heart so blinded him that he somehow expected his army would be preserved in the midst of those two giant walls of water kept back by the power of the same God to which his heart would only harden.

While the Bible is silent as to whether this Pharaoh actually died with his army, the chronology of 1 Kings 6:1 demands that the Exodus occurred in March of 1450 B.C., the exact same time the ruling Pharaoh at that time, Tutmoses III - not Ramses who is so often identified as the Pharaoh of the Exodus by those who reject the historicity of the Bible - died and was buried. There is much archaeological circumstantial evidence to substantiate the Bible is true.

Several decades ago, two scientists named Harris and Weeks examined the mummy found in the tomb claimed to be that of Tumoses III - which should have been that of an old man (he and Moses were about the same age - 80) - and by forensic science determined that it was the body of a young man - a fake mummy. Since Pharaoh was considered "god" by the Egyptians, and since the Egyptians were known to painstakingly cover up anything historically that would embarrass their "god", could it be the reason for burying a fake Pharaoh in that tomb was to avoid having to admit to posterity that they'd lost their Pharaoh - like at the bottom of the Red Sea? I think so LOL

 

[Laish]

Forgive me, but I'm not going to claim I hold the answer to this ancient question. In a sense we are held responsible as it is our duty to preach the gospel. Ezekiel 3:18

Yea I think understand what your saying.
You quoted
Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.
So you don’t believe that a sinner’s sins are forgiven before he accepts the Gospel or not ?
That he the sinner is responsible for his own sins senses the context of our conversation is dealing with the people who never heard the Gospel?
Blessings
Bill

 

[friend of]

@Preacher4Truth

Again, I'm going to have to ask that you edit your reply in post #243 so that it's more readable. Bbl

 

[friend of]

So you don’t believe that a sinner’s sins are forgiven before he accepts the Gospel or not ?
That he the sinner is responsible for his own sins senses the context of our conversation is dealing with the people who never heard the Gospel?
Blessings
Bill

You're going to need to rephrase this.

 

[Phoneman777]

Ok why don’t all get on the bus ?

The A/C is broken, the food isn't that great, the seats are hard, no pop or rap or heavy metal or country/western: only boring hymns and spiritual songs, absolutely no hanky panky, cross-dressing, or gay pride allowed, the route is bumpy and difficult and often the bus often gets violently ambushed - I mean, who'd want to sign up for that trip, right?

 

[Laish]

You're going to need to rephrase this.

Ok will try

So you don’t believe that a sinner’s sins are forgiven before he accepts the Gospel or not ?

Ok Do you believe that all sins of the world are forgiven?

That he the sinner is responsible for his own sins senses the context of our conversation is dealing with the people who never heard the Gospel?

Ok looking at Ezekiel 3:18 from your post the sinner is responsible for his sins even if they never heard the Gospel is that correct? .
Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

Please note We are not looking at the Christian obligation to preach the Gospel. We are addressing the ones that never heard.
Hope this helps
Blessings
Bill

 

[Laish]

The A/C is broken, the food isn't that great, the seats are hard, no pop or rap or heavy metal or country/western: only boring hymns and spiritual songs, absolutely no hanky panky, cross-dressing, or gay pride allowed, the route is bumpy and difficult and often the bus often gets violently ambushed - I mean, who'd want to sign up for that trip, right?

Nope that almost sounds like the buss to the other place lol
Blessings
Bill

 

[Nancy]

Agreed. The sun hardens clay but melts butter. The heart of Pharaoh was of such substance that hardened when coming in contact with the Potter. And why not? According to Biblical chronology, he was "Tutmoses III" (not Ramses) aka "the Napoleon of Egypt" - the mightiest of all the ancient Pharaohs. Also, he was the most devout in his Satanic religion, having personally supervised the compilation of the occult masterpiece, "The Book of the Dead", that ancient Luciferian Bible. It's no wonder that even in midst of overwhelming defeat the night before the Exodus, he STILL refused to withdraw his devotion from his Egyptian gods who were proved helpless to save even his own firstborn. And that hardness of his heart so blinded him that he somehow expected his army would be preserved in the midst of those two giant walls of water kept back by the power of the same God to which his heart would only harden.

While the Bible is silent as to whether this Pharaoh actually died with his army, the chronology of 1 Kings 6:1 demands that the Exodus occurred in March of 1450 B.C., the exact same time the ruling Pharaoh at that time, Tutmoses III - not Ramses who is so often identified as the Pharaoh of the Exodus by those who reject the historicity of the Bible - died and was buried. There is much archaeological circumstantial evidence to substantiate the Bible is true.

Several decades ago, two scientists named Harris and Weeks examined the mummy found in the tomb claimed to be that of Tumoses III - which should have been that of an old man (he and Moses were about the same age - 80) - and by forensic science determined that it was the body of a young man - a fake mummy. Since Pharaoh was considered "god" by the Egyptians, and since the Egyptians were known to painstakingly cover up anything historically that would embarrass their "god", could it be the reason for burying a fake Pharaoh in that tomb was to avoid having to admit to posterity that they'd lost their Pharaoh - like at the bottom of the Red Sea? I think so LOL

So, Ramses had a nickname, huh
"Tutmoses III - not Ramses who is so often identified as the Pharaoh of the Exodus by those who reject the historicity of the Bible "
Yes, and I would include Hollywood in that too.
Ha, the "fake mummy" "like at the bottom of the Red Sea?"...me tinx you could be right, espec. looking at the time period between him and Moses.

 

[friend of]

Ok Do you believe that all sins of the world are forgiven?

All who come to faith in Christ have their sins forgiven. All who reject the gospel obviously will not have their sins forgiven. Christ's sacrifice is more than enough to pay for the sins of all who come to Him.

Ok looking at Ezekiel 3:18 from your post the sinner is responsible for his sins even if they never heard the Gospel is that correct? Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

John 8:24

The only reason I posted Eze 3:18 was to give an example of a servant of God who was given much and was required to serve greatly with what he had been given.

Obviously I dont know how God is going to judge each individual case.

 

[Laish]

All who come to faith in Christ have their sins forgiven. All who reject the gospel obviously will not have their sins forgiven. Christ's sacrifice is more than enough to pay for the sins of all who come to Him.



John 8:24

The only reason I posted Eze 3:18 was to give an example of a servant of God who was given much and was required to serve greatly with what he had been given.

Obviously I dont know how God is going to judge each individual case.

Ok another question do you group those that rejected the Gospel with those that are ignorant?
Blessings
Bill

 

[Nancy]

Ok another question do you group those that rejected the Gospel with those that are ignorant?
Blessings
Bill

Romans 2:14-15
14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law,
Since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them."

Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

So, that says to me that ignorance is not an option?

 

[Laish]

So, that says to me that ignorance is not an option?

If you mean that those are ignorant of Jesus and die unsaved ,die unsaved for their sins and not for rejecting Jesus Yea I agree
I am not saying this about you or Friend of but some folks say that Jesus’s work on the cross has paired for all the sins of the world . Leading to the question if so why do folks die unsaved?
Even if they never heard.
Not looking for agreement just clarity.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Phoneman777]

Nope that almost sounds like the buss to the other place lol
Blessings
Bill

"Strait (difficult) is the gate."