Oh yes, of course, it is end time prophecy.
But how do we know we are IN the end time rather than in a waning that might turn around? Could we go another thousand years before the end comes?
What is The Great Delusion?
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Oh yes, of course, it is end time prophecy.
But how do we know we are IN the end time rather than in a waning that might turn around? Could we go another thousand years before the end comes?
And the delusion will be that of believing that Antichrist is Christ. He will further the delusion by standing in the Temple of God, declaring himself to be God the Son. The Jewish believers, who are converted after the Church is raptured, will not be fooled--they will leave immediately for the wilderness, where they will be protected for the remaining time of the Great Tribulation. Satan has always desired the loyalty and worship of humans for himself. Those who take the Mark of the Beast will worship him directly.
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I kind of have a view on it, but I didn't answer because I sometimes think if I see something in a spiritual way, others think I'm insane.
But since many think it already, I will just out with it.
Its like...our God is a consuming fire. We are here getting our dross burned off, so we will come out pure, because we are being prepared to carry the weight of His glory. If we were to see Him face to face, we would...not live, because we could not bear it in our current varying states of impurity.
He touches us with a very gentle touch and suddenly we feel we are in complete darkness and dryness. It causes us great distress. I believe we would go mad and then be annihilated if we saw Him and all dross was removed at once.
Even when the prophet soaked the wood, soaked the wood again, and filled the trough with water, the sacrifice was burned and all the water was gone.
Its...probably sounds insane, but there it is.
'And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
.. whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth,
.... and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
...... Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan
........ with all power and signs and lying wonders,
.......... And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth,
.. that they might be saved.
.... And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
...... that they should believe a lie:
........ That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
.......... but had pleasure in unrighteousness.'
(2 Thessalonians 2:8-12)
Hello @stunnedbygrace,
Israel is Lo-ammi at the moment (ie., 'Not My People' - Hosea 1:9,10; Hosea 2:23), therefore I believe that their prophetic clock has stopped. There is no waning or turning around taking place during this interval.
At the time that 2 Thessalonians was written the expectation was of the Lord's imminent return. It all depended on the repentance of Israel, for which opportunity was given during the approximately 40 years of the Acts period. Had they done so, the words of Peter in Acts 2, would have taken effect, and the day of the Lord would have come.
'But those things,
.. which God before had shewed by the mouth of all His prophets,
.... that Christ should suffer,
...... He hath so fulfilled.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
.. that your sins may be blotted out,
.... when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
.. which before was preached unto you:
.... Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
...... which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.'
(Act 3:18-21)
* The times of the Gentiles must now run it's course: but we have been given signs to look out for, haven't we? which will indicate that the day of the Lord is near. I believe there are strong indications that that day is approaching.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Adam and Eve believed a lie (for a very short time) but they did not become delusional. Jesus said that, in His Father's House, there were many mansions. He stated further that if it were not so, He would have told them. It is all a matter of who you believe--God or His adversary, Satan. God sends a delusion to those who are already on their way to an eternity without God. We can see it in Pharaoh and Judas Iscariot. What they were was already apparent and God confirmed them in their evil ways.
I disagree Adam and eve were not deluded. If I told you a snickers bar on the counter would kill you and you ate it anyway, you were either deluded into thinking I did not mean it, or insane.
And if anyone thinks God has lied, they are deluded.
But it seems to be our way to protect our status at all costs. Religious men are never deluded, right? Well, some of them are...but not me. Right...?
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
If you will read back over what I actually said, it was that they believed the lie that the Satanic snake told them but that they were NOT delusional. We believe lies all the time, if we don't know them to be lies--but we are not typically deluded. Eve was innocent and she believed the lie--just as children believe the lie of Santa. But one would not describe young children as being "delusional".
Delusion is typically the product of a disordered mind. "Religious men" (at least the ones who become famous) might be evil (i.e., they do evil things like torturing people to death, for daring to disagree, as John Calvin did) but their thinking is usually orderly and rational. Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion are not the product of a disordered or irrational mind.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I don't think its sounds insane sbg. I think its a good analogy.I kind of have a view on it, but I didn't answer because I sometimes think if I see something in a spiritual way, others think I'm insane.
But since many think it already, I will just out with it.
Its like...our God is a consuming fire. We are here getting our dross burned off, so we will come out pure, because we are being prepared to carry the weight of His glory. If we were to see Him face to face, we would...not live, because we could not bear it in our current varying states of impurity.
He touches us with a very gentle touch and suddenly we feel we are in complete darkness and dryness. It causes us great distress. I believe we would go mad and then be annihilated if we saw Him and all dross was removed at once.
Even when the prophet soaked the wood, soaked the wood again, and filled the trough with water, the sacrifice was burned and all the water was gone.
Its...probably sounds insane, but there it is.
It's not all your fault. We've allowed HIRELINGS to take over our churches and fellowships, and we've been manipulated into trusting them to deliver our Christianity. But Scripture states how the Church is SUPPOSED to be run:
1 Cor. 14:26 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent.
In virtually EVERY church (small "c") one person speaks week, after week, after week, after week, after week, after week, after week, -- well you get the idea. And the things which are "presented" are like a banquet where the only bowl on the table is broccoli, and it doesn't always come how most people prefer it, with salt, or butter, or salt and butter, or cheese, -- or on someone else's plate. And the ONLY participation I ever get is when I open my wallet.
So the church stumbles around in the dark, thinking that they are just fine picking whatever flower comes up along the path.
However, Christianity is serious business with serious consequences, and I doubt that any so called "christian" in this Forum has any clue that, -- per my best understanding --, we entered the 42 month tribulation a year ago when Trump recognized Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. -- And there's no magical "Rapture" to protect us from that future time when we can't buy or sell, -- and the sleeping christians (small "c") will have their own "holocaust" just like the sleeping Jews had.
But you criticize me for telling non-thinking people to THINK, when we should ALL be THINKING PEOPLE.
So keep the tarnish off yourself AND the church so that all of our brightness shines.
Bobby Jo
I agree with everything you have said here (with the exception that you don't believe in the Rapture). If you read Dwight Pentecost's (with a name like that, he just had to be a theologian--right?) Things to Come. I gave it to one of my Calvinist friends who did not believe in the Rapture. He now firmly believes in the Rapture. Pentecost does a thorough analysis of all the different positions regarding eschatology. It is a classic. You can probably get it at your local library (or through inter-library loan). If not, it is still in print and well worth the purchase--I promise.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Oh, NO! I FULLY expect that day, -- it's just not a Tribulation era event. Rev. 20 says who will return with Jesus, and it doesn't include the "church". And of course the "rapture" doesn't happen until the DEAD are raised, which isn't until the end of the Millennial Kingdom (Ref. Rev. 20). And when the New Jerusalem shows up, we'll NEED the "taking away" for those who are alive and remain on earth to ascend to the New Jerusalem. Otherwise it might be wise to invest in trampolines, pogo sticks, those clamp-on "shoes" which have those large coiled springs, etc.
But yeah, there is a "rapture", and there's a REASON why the Pre-, Mid-, & Post- folks all disagree as to the occurrence, -- BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL DEBATING A TRIBULATION ERA FALSE DOCTRINE. So each group thinks that their lies are less flawed than the other guy's lies. -- Pretty funny if you ask me!
With Very Best Regards,
Bobby Jo
PS If you were a HIRELING, wouldn't you tell people that ~Jesus-could-come-at-any-moment~? Of course you would, because the "flock" is afraid of missing the "rapture" so they show up week after week after week I-N F-E-A-R. The truth is, I don't expect HIM to come for another 2 1/2 years (according to my best understanding of Scripture, -- in accordance with 1 Thess 5 allowance.) Yeah, maybe you should listen to the HIRELING instead of me. Jesus says that HIRELINGS are the BEST THING for the Church -- NOT! -- But where the HIRELING defies the order of the Church (Ref. 1 Cor. 14:26), I am MORE than willing to back up what Scripture provides.
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CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
At least most of us agree part of the strong delusion will be supernatural.
But something I heard today was convincing that technology will play a greater role than I originally thought. Meaning artificial intelligence.
The chip plus AI plus supernatural working on atheists, cults and other religions will be powerful tools in the hands of the AC.
But something I heard today was convincing that technology will play a greater role than I originally thought. Meaning artificial intelligence.
The chip plus AI plus supernatural working on atheists, cults and other religions will be powerful tools in the hands of the AC.
I agree that, we don't see the Church, in the Revelation narrative, until Revelation 21. However, I think that Paul set the time of the Rapture to be in the time in which he was speaking. (1 Thessalonians ch. 4 and 5 as well as 1 Corinthians ch.15). There are two Resurrections. The First Resurrection (of life)--of those in Christ (beginning with the First Fruits of Jesus' Resurrection and that of the OT saints--extending through the Resurrection of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11). The Second Resurrection (of death)--coming at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, will be to the Great White Throne Judgment and probably to the "Second Death". I believe that is why Revelation says "Blessed and holy are those in the First Resurrection. The Second Death has no power over them."
I think that the Church is taken away before the Tribulation because we are not appointed to God's wrath (the whole of the judgments in the Book of Revelation are the exercise of the wrath of God Almighty and the wrath of the Lamb--see Revelation ch 5 and 6).And of course the "rapture" doesn't happen until the DEAD are raised, which isn't until the end of the Millennial Kingdom (Ref. Rev. 20). And when the New Jerusalem shows up, we'll NEED the "taking away" for those who are alive and remain on earth to ascend to the New Jerusalem. Otherwise it might be wise to invest in trampolines, pogo sticks, those clamp-on "shoes" which have those large coiled springs, etc.
PS If you were a HIRELING, wouldn't you tell people that ~Jesus-could-come-at-any-moment~? Of course you would, because the "flock" is afraid of missing the "rapture" so they show up week after week after week I-N F-E-A-R. The truth is, I don't expect HIM to come for another 2 1/2 years (according to my best understanding of Scripture, -- in accordance with 1 Thess 5 allowance.) Yeah, maybe you should listen to the HIRELING in stead of me. Jesus says that HIRELINGS are the BEST THING for the Church -- NOT! -- But where the HIRELING defies the order of the Church (Ref. 1 Cor. 14:26), I am MORE than willing to back up what Scripture provides.
Except that the doctrine of the immanence of Christ's return has been taught always--throughout the history of the Church. It is obvious that the Apostles believed that He could return at any moment.
Yes, its pretty clear language that states 2 resurrections, one a 1,000 years after the 1st one.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
The first resurrection begins pretrib. Then adds the two witnesses, then the tribulation martyrs and finally the MK Saints.I agree that, we don't see the Church, in the Revelation narrative, until Revelation 21. However, I think that Paul set the time of the Rapture to be in the time in which he was speaking. (1 Thessalonians ch. 4 and 5 as well as 1 Corinthians ch.15). There are two Resurrections. The First Resurrection (of life)--of those in Christ (beginning with the First Fruits of Jesus' Resurrection and that of the OT saints--extending through the Resurrection of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11). The Second Resurrection (of death)--coming at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, will be to the Great White Throne Judgment and probably to the "Second Death". I believe that is why Revelation says "Blessed and holy are those in the First Resurrection. The Second Death has no power over them."
I think that the Church is taken away before the Tribulation because we are not appointed to God's wrath (the whole of the judgments in the Book of Revelation are the exercise of the wrath of God Almighty and the wrath of the Lamb--see Revelation ch 5 and 6).
Except that the doctrine of the immanence of Christ's return has been taught always--throughout the history of the Church. It is obvious that the Apostles believed that He could return at any moment.
The Bible clearly says there are only two resurrections. It does not say how long each one will last.
There is a verse though that says after Jesus death, they also saw many of their dead walking around. I've always wondered about that. It sort of would mean three resurrections in total.
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